AMA - Modern Israel and the Israeli-Arab Conflict

by tayaravaknin

Hi!

I'm going to be hosting today's AMA and answering all your burning questions on the history of Modern Israel and Palestine! Some guidelines, before we get down to business:

  • I am fully prepared to talk about anything from the beginnings of modern Zionism (roughly the 1880s) to the Oslo I Accords (early 1990s). However, I will not include the Oslo I Accords, as they are far too political and it would be difficult to talk about them without breaking the 20 year rule.

  • I am prepared to answer any question about Israeli or Palestinian perspectives. I have studied the historians and political beliefs of both sides of this conflict, and can answer questions about them.

  • Please don't come in with preconceptions, and please be respectful. This is a charged topic, especially with ongoing political events, so I hope we can have a minimum of trolling and the like!

Finally, I'd like to note that I do have a pro-Israel bias, and I'd like to be upfront about that. However, my political beliefs do not (I believe) apply to which information I present. I have always, especially on this sub, attempted to provide both perspectives to the best of my ability, or intermingle them and acknowledge the differences of opinion, as I did here. I will attempt to cite all my references/sources, so please feel free to ask, and check out what I say as well :)!

Ask away!

Edit: Taking a brief lunch/dinner (linner? dunch?) break, will return shortly to continue! Keep asking questions, I'll still get to them!

Edit 2: In case it wasn't clear, I'm back!

Edit 3: Forgot to mention, anyone interested in following and learning more after the AMA can follow my blog or ask questions there, it's http://tayaravaknin.wordpress.com. I only recently set it up, and will be adding to it over time, so please feel free to take a look!

Edit 4: Well, with me needing sleep finally after 14 hours, I'm closing up the AMA. It was enjoyable to host, and I'm hopeful that everyone enjoyed! If I promised you a PM, it will arrive sometime tomorrow: I have not forgotten! Anyone with more questions can still post in the thread or post as a separate thread (probably better to post separately) in /r/AskHistorians :). Good night everyone!

Zenarchist

What, in your opinion, are the three most historically inaccurate 'facts' perpetuated by the anti-Israel crowd and the three most historically inaccurate 'facts' perpetuated by the pro-Israel crowd?

HatMaster12

How and why did the partition of the British Mandate for Palestine as laid out by the United Nations in 1947 not happen?

Georgy_K_Zhukov

How would you characterize the relationship between Haganah and the British Authorities? It seems that calling it all over-the-place would be an understatement.

Vladith

One matter has always perplexed me. Did the first Israeli settlers pay for any of the land they settler, or was it all "stolen" from the Arabs?

Next, how true is the claim that Palestinian people generally distrust Israelis not because of their Jewish religion, but because of their European ethnicity? Was there really full toleration of Arab Jews in the decades before the formation of Israel?

IamaTarsierAMA

My question is not very specific - what is the history of Israel's allies? I understand it was the USSR for a while, then France, and finally US. Why did Israel have these allies and how did it change?

Lynfect

I've heard that the goals of the Arab armies in 1948, 1967 and 1973 were to exterminate the Jewish people living in Israel and commit mass genocide. Is this actually true? I've read the quote that was something along the lines of 'we will drive the Jews into the sea', and seen that used as evidence for the Arab plot to commit genocide. But is that accurate? Was that the only goal of the Arab armies during the wars?

facepoundr

Did the Cold War affect the Israel-Palestinian conflict in anyway? Was there any attempts by the Soviets to back Palestine? Or was their support of the surrounding Arab nations just coincided with the conflict?

jcaseys34

How big of a role did WWII play in the creation of the modern nation of Israel?

IamaTarsierAMA

How did Israel succeed as a state? It seems nothing less than a miracle - no infrastructure, no political system, very diverse group of immigrants, no common language (and an almost entirely new made up language!), on top of all that violent resistance from neighbors, turn into a first world country within half a century.

A success that many far richer countries in natural resources are unable to duplicate. What happened there??

Trinity-

How confessionally diverse have the PLO and PFLP been in terms of membership and leadership? Has Sunni-centrism been a significant issue in terms of representing the views of religious minorities within Palestine?

smdji

Please explain the historical relationship between the Gaza Strip and Egypt.

nyshtick

What was the relationship between Palestinians in Gaza & the West Bank and the Egyptian/Jordanian authorities between 1949 & 1967. Was there resistance to the Egyptian & Jordanian rule? If so, how extensive was the resistance?

golergka

How communist were kibutzim, and how did it influence the Israel society and economy?

Commustar

I have a few questions about Israel's participation in the Suez crisis.

What reasons did the Israeli government have for working with France and Britain to seize the canal?

How much cooperation between UK,France and Israel was there in the planning stages for taking the canal? Did UK and France discuss this scenario and later include Israel or was Israel part of the planning from the beginning?

What was the fallout of the Suez crisis in terms of Israeli-US relations and Israeli-Soviet relations?

Thanks!

medtech8693

Hi, thanks for doing this. Why was the west bank not returned to Jordan? Was it considered? In the 70' and 80' - was it considered likely that continued occupation would give Israel the problems it faces today.

QuelqueChoseRose

You hear a lot of people say that Israel wouldn't exist today without U.S. support, and then you some hear people say that they in fact would. Now, "today" breaks the 20-year rule, but at least from a military perspective I don't think Israel's faced an immediate existential threat within the last 20 years, so...

  • Of the various wars Israel fought from '48 up to the Oslo Accords, how much of their military strength was dependent on U.S. funding? If Israel had not had American support, what sorts of things would they have to have done to still win the wars? Or would there have been nothing they could do?

  • Geopolitically, how much of Israel's international legitimacy (such as it is) comes from its close relationship with the U.S.? Would Israel have had more trouble forming and maintaining relations with other countrues? If so, would this have occurred to such an extent that the state wouldn't have survived?

If any of these questions are too broad or hypothetical, let me know and I can make them more precise.

Dhanvantari

What percentage of the population of Israel is of an origin that lied within the territories of the Ottoman empire?

sammy1857

Thanks for doing this AMA- I've recently been studying early 20th century Arab immigration to the region of Palestine, and was wondering if you could explain how widespread this immigration was, and what were some of the main factors catalyzing it?

[deleted]

How hard is it studying the conflict between Israel and Palestine, given the susceptibility to bias?

golergka

It seems to me that US is the only country out of this region that has a stake in this conflict; others are either from nearby or don't really care. Is it correct, or there are/were other countries that were deeply involved in the situation?

EasySchmitty

When did Palestinian/Israeli claims begin to stem? How so?

Have there been other countries that have pledged support to the Palestinians during the 50's and 60's during the numerous wars?

How were the borders figured out for Israel?

Were there any major world leaders not from the middle east that attempted to intervene with the conflict (presidents, prime ministers, etc.)? Could you also recommend some good readings/movies that give detailed histories (preferably unbiased)?

jc-miles

Hi thank you for this AMA! Did Anti-Semitism exist in the middle east pre-zionism? How did it differ from European-style anti-semitism?

nyshtick

After 1967, was there ever a chance of Gaza or the West Bank being returned to Egypt or Jordan respectively instead of creating an independent or autonomous state in the territories?

TheInfelicitousDandy

I've always wondered what Israel's economic ties were/are to its neighboring countries and if anything changed on that front after the peace deal with Egypt? (I guess Jordan would break the 20 year rule)

spgtothemax

During the early conflicts how did Israel arm itself? How did its weapons and equipment change throughout the 20th century culminating in it making its own weapons?

oh_for_sure_man

Hi tayaravknin,

Thank you for taking the time to answer our questions. I have my own leanings on the conflict (pro-Israel), but I do appreciate your attitude towards balance and using sources as disparate in their views on the conflict as Karsh and Khalidi. My questions mainly concern Jordan and its relationship to the conflict.

  1. A common argument I heard growing up from more right wing family members was that Jordan was meant to be (or even already is!) the Palestinian state. I always thought this was a bit too "just-so" a treatment of the topic, but is there any truth to this notion? Regardless of the answer, do you know where specifically this argument originated from?

  2. When Jordan annexed the West Bank was there any Palestinian resistance against Jordinian rule or was the populace generally on amiable terms? Was the territory considered occupied by the rest of the world or was Jordinian administration formally legalized by the international community?

BartletForPrez

Was there ever a plan for a single unified nation in the partition plan region?

golergka

How different are regions of Israel/Palestine strategically and economically? Is this distinction the same now as it was a century ago, or did their value change (for example, as did the value of Arabic peninsula because of all the oil)?

82364

Could you describe the pre-Israel conflicts between the Zionists and Palestinians? (Better nomenclature?) My understanding is that the writing was on the wall - is that a correct assessment?

[deleted]

Two Questions:

How was the relationship (if any) between the yishuv and other minorities in the region prior to 1948?

To what extent was Lebanese involvement in the 1948, 1967 and 1973 wars?

Commustar

Can you talk a little about the history of the Sinai peninsula under Israeli control from 1967 to 1982?

Specifically, I understand that Israeli settlements had been constructed in the Sinai during that period. Were those settlements established by private citizens, or were they officially supported by the government of Israel? Did the Israeli's who lived in the Sinai consider it to be fully a part of Israel for the foreseeable future?

Also, what sort of considerations caused Israel to give up the Sinai in the Egypt-Israel peace treaty?

redpiano82991

Do you have any really good books you could recommend on this subject? I would like to be better informed about it.

[deleted]

Hello /u/tayaravaknin. My question is regarding the definition of Zionism.

What is Zionism, exactly? I'm under the impression that a Zionist is someone who believes there should be a Jewish state. If that is the case, then does that make the people who support the existence of Israeli, Zionists?

Am I wrong, or has the definition changed significantly? Also, why is there a negative connotation associated with that word?

Thank you.

Jrixyzle

Hi. I'm probably pretty late here, my questions are pretty newbie, but I have only been educating myself on the issue since the recent events there. I don't know which side I have a bias for, but I have been more sympathetic with either side at different points. Anyway, I hope you can answer my questions without too much trouble.

Of Israel and Palestine, who has more international support?

I know that Israel is supported by the USA, Canada, Russia and a handful of other nations, and I know that Israel is not even recognized by 32(?) nations. I know that Israel likely receives more aid, but what I'm wondering about is public opinion.

My other question is this: as I know it, Israel is thought to likely have nuclear weapon capabilities. How does this affect the surrounding nations, and what have they done or prepared for because of this realization?

Hopefully these questions aren't too dumb, thanks a lot! :-)

hungliketictacs

Can we hear what you know about propaganda within israel? I have some young friends living in Ashdod and they seem to only look at one side of it.

golergka

Today, the conflict between Israel and Gaza is characterized by the fact that Israel's civilian and military losses are one-two orders smaller than Gaza's. Was this already a trend in the period up to 1994 (20 year rule)? If it was, how did this difference grew, and what consequences did it have?

golergka

Can you tell more about incidents like Qibya massacre in early Israel history? How usual was israeli terror acts in this period, and how did general israeli population react to them? Were they widely known? Did israeli society had any sense of regret for incidents like this?

Jef_Delon

Thanks for doing this. I have a couple of questions for you. Firstly, to what extent would you attribute European guilt over the treatment of Jews as a contributing factor in their support for the establishment of Israel? Secondly, was race a contributing factor in any policies towards the establishment of Israel? Lastly, what would you say was the key reasons for yitzhak rabin's shift in views towards the peace process? Thanks again!

CasualtiesofConflict

As someone about to start a graduate program in Middle Eastern studies I was excited to see this AMA. My area of interest will likely be 18th-20th century Palestine.

My question is more about specific authors. Have you read Simha Flapan's The Birth of Israel? I was drawn into his book very quickly because of its detailed refutation of the standard mythology around Israel's founding.

Do you have any recommendations on scholars focused more on socio-economic history of Palestine prior to the mandate?

Thanks!