Thirty Years War AMA

by Sid_Burn

Hello! So this AMA is intended to cover the Thirty Years War as well as the build up/aftermath.

The panellists will show up at various times so if a question doesn't get answered right away don't worry, all questions will be answered eventually. Our panellists come from a wide variety of backgrounds, so feel free to touch on military/social/religious/political topics.

The panellists are:

/u/Sid_Burn - I can cover generally any topic, from military to politics to social issues. I mostly focus on Prussia but can cover all of Germany

/u/elos_ -Can cover topics relating to France and Germany from 1618 onwards

/u/Aethelric - Can cover diplomatic and social topics and the run up to the war

/u/Vonadler - Covers European warfare and the conflict as a whole

/u/donaldfdraper - military theory and French history

HatMaster12

Thanks for doing this AMA guys! My question is kind of big, so thanks in advance for agreeing to tackle it!

-The military reforms of Gustavus Aldophus are often portrayed (at least in more popular circles) as revolutionary, representing a real change from previous military practices. What exactly did his reforms entail, how did they differ from established military tactics, and how revolutionary, if at all, were they actually?

elos_

I do just want to come in and say, publicly, as I did to a few other panelists that I'm so sorry that I can't participate despite being on the ledger! My girlfriend came down with a harsh fever overnight and is in the hospital right now so I'm preoccupied in general. I will, surely however, try to hit more of the unanswered questions as the AMA peters off into the night if/when I get home! :)

Sorry again; I was very hyped to nerd out on this one but alas.

CommodoreCoCo

Was there any form of conflict in the Americas as a result of the military actions in Europe? Most French holdings were far north of Spain's, but the French held many colonies in the Caribbean, right next to Spanish controlled Mexico.

ParallelPain

How did historians calculate the population decline of various areas of the HRE? Did the HRE keep accurate census, or is this extrapolated from archeology?

Dubstripsquads

Why was there such an explosion of Witch hunts and persecutions during the war? Was this just a subversive way of removing suspected Protestants or Catholics from your town?

Dubstripsquads

Despite the obvious theological differences between various Protestant groups, did the Thirty Years War lead to any religious cross-pollination between denominations? Is there doctrinal evidence that post-war Protestant thought was influenced by the War?

LainTheMane

Thank you so much for doing this AMA, the thirty years war is a very interesting subject indeed and I hope to be able to study it further one day!

I have several questions to ask but I am unsure if I should pack it all into one post or spread it across multiple, but I'll await that answer from a mod (or yourselves)

My primary questions however is on the issue of tolerance. From my reading of C.V Wedgewood I understand that Catholics and Protestants didn't like each other very much, however if you had to explain to a class or 14-15 year old kids why they could not live and let live like most nation-states do today, how would you? Could you draw any sort of parallels with something modern (that a 14 year old can understand) or are there any analogies you can think of that can help explain it?

Again, thank you so much for answering all these intresting questions it is truly an honor.

Ju87stuka6644

I am teaching European History at an AP level for the first time and one aspect of the textbook we use (Jackson Spielvogel's Western Civilization) with regards to the Peace of Westphalia has troubled me a bit. In a discussion on the outcome of the war, Spielvogel writes "The Peace of Westphalia also made it clear that religion and politics were now separate. The pope was completely ignored in all decisions at Westphalia."

Can you clarify this discussion? What role did the Pope have (or try to have) at Westphalia? Was it just in the HRE that the Church was now ignored? Thanks!

randomhistorian1

How did contemporaries in Europe view the Thirty Years War as it happened?, and Was there any form of Anti-War movements in Europe during the Thirty Years war, as a reaction to the warfare?

Goat_im_Himmel

Is the film The Last Valley a reasonable portrayal of the kind of lawlessness that common people could expect to be subjected to during the conflict?

ibstrd

Was there ever any major fighting between the Lutherans and the Calvinists?

Brickie78

Is it fair to say that a major contributing factor to the war (and indeed to the success of Luther in the first place) was the structure of the HRE itself?

That is to say, that the way the HRE was organised meant a constant tug of war between Emperor and Imperial institutions trying to centralise and individual princes trying to decentralise. Luther would have been burned as a heretic after the Diet of Worms if some German princes hadn't seen a way to cock a snook at the Emperor, while the flashpoint of the 30YW was the Bohemian nobles trying to assert themselves against Imperial control.

Religion becomes the casus belli, but the underlying cause is the inherent instability of the HRE.

Comments?

theonlymouli

I've read that many troop movements in the 30 years war were motivated by need for supplies. Can you elaborate on that? How were the logistics generally managed?

urkspleen

When I saw this I realized I did not know anything about the 30 Years War, and almost turned to Wikipedia. However, I figured while I'm here it'd be much nicer to get a historian's summary of the conflict. Care to provide a TLDR?

thepibbs

What is the biggest misunderstanding students and non-specialists have about the war?

InsightfulWaffle

How devoted were many of the priests on both sides of the conflict to their cause? Would there be any 'parallels' or similarities between the Thirty Years War and modern conflicts of such scale and religious conflict?

Tiako
  • This one is pretty simple: I remember reading an excerpt from a book written during the Thirty Years War, in which the lead character who was a deserter from the army (or was running from deserters, I can't remember which) bumps into a group of witches. I remember it being pretty powerful and extremely grim work and would love to read the whole thing. Any idea what I am talking about?

  • On that note, in terms of popular reaction, the Thirty Years War is often seen as an Event and a Turning Point. Was it seen as such at the time, or was it just yet another one of the religiously tinted wars that had been going on for a century?

  • More popular reaction: the English Civil War is famous for producing innumerable splinter socio-religious sects, such as the Diggers and the Levellers. Are there any equivalents for the Thirty Years War?

  • On that note, how localized was the different phases in the war? Was it an all consuming conflagration of the HRE, or was it really only fairly limited at any given time?

  • How much controversy was there in France over the decision to fight against fellow Catholics?

  • And for a more fun pub discussion question, bare knuckle brawl between Wallenstein and Gustavus Adolphus, who wins? (seriously though, who would you pick as the "great general")

ParallelPain

What was the intellectual response to the widespread deduction? Did thinkers go we should be more religious? Less religious? Government should be more centralised? Less centralised?

soccihastati

After the war ended, what did the soldiers and mercenaries who found themselves out of work do? Did these men turn into bandits or did they settle down?

Hitti-Litti

In the midst of such a massive religious conflict, what was the role of the Jews? Were they persecuted (more than normally), if so by which sides or both? Did they sympathise with the Catholics or the Protestants or with neither? Were they used as a scapegoat in the same manner as Jews have so often been used?

LainTheMane

How fantastic a ruler/general was Gustavus Adolphus in reality? I am currently reading a book on the thirty years war (by C.V Wedgewood, don't know how reliable he actually is) and I just finished reading about the battle of Breitenfeld and I get the impression that the success of Gustavus Adolphus is more linked to Tilly's incompetence (or rather his inability to control his own soldiers) then his own competence.

LainTheMane

Where was the Ottoman empire during the conflict? I know they aided the protestant side a little initially, but one would think that they would jump at the chance to invade Austria since they were busy on other fronts.

wordboyhere

I have seen some argue that the 30 years war, was the first world war. What do you think?

HappyAtavism

What sort of influence and interaction was there between the 30 Years War and the English Civil War(s)?

mrpapadopolous

Now I was previously taught that the thirty years war led to the modern states in Europe, however I also read how different states that stoll exist today (the dutch, the french, the spanish, Portuguese) seem to be acting as sole identities (from the top comments answer) Was my previous teachings untrue ?

lexarexasaurus

I have been wondering about this forever - I don't think answers were given before, but feel free to direct me to them.

How did the Thirty Years War affect relations between Europe and the Middle East? Was the region pulled into Europe's politics at all or did they maintain some isolation? I know the Ottomans generally stayed out of it, but were there any other outside players involved?

Feel free to answer these any or all of these! Or maybe a question I should be asking but am not.

TheDocks
  1. I heard somewhere that cossacks fought in the thirty year war, I was wondering if anybody had any solid information on whether this is true and how they got there?
  2. As I understand it the typical infantryman of the day fought with either a pike or a primitive firearm. Was this typical for all combatants in the war and was body armor still being used?
Cruentum

What were peace conferences like at this time? As I understand it Johann Wettstein of Switzerland participated while neither being invited (as the Swiss Cantons of course didn't participate in the war outside of sale of mercenaries to both sides) and without even permission by the Cantons. Was this kind of thing common in the time period?

Enchilada_McMustang

The Peace of Augsburg established a certain balance between catholics and lutherans, but as I understand calvinists were completely left out, were there instances of open conflict between calvinists and lutherans because of this, and did any of them ever try to gain support from the catholics against the other? I'm asking specifically regarding the empire not in France or Switzerland.

Gama_Rex

A. The Thirty Years War is usually framed as a huge turning point, ending a century of religious wars and leaving behind an era of wars between faiths and creating an era of wars between countries. To what degree is this assessment accepted by current field experts, and, if not, how is the war's place in the narrative of the religious wars treated now?

B. What about the Thirty Years War and its end led to such a transformation? The indecisive result? The sheer horror of the conflict?

Werdnamanhill

What were the effects of the Schmalkaldic? League conflict on the 30 years war?

Cruentum

I read in a recent book that Prussia during Frederick the Great's time had up to 5 recruiters each in random Swiss villages and towns to recruit people as mercenaries (The Army of Frederick the Great by Christopher Duffy). However from a different book I recently read Florence, Milan, France, Austria, etc. all seemed to make a contract with the head of a Canton to receive a certain amount of soldiers instead (The Sack of Rome by Luigi Gicciardini and The Italian Wars by Michael Malett and Christine Shaw). And from what I know of the Revolution the Hessians were hired by literally recruiting regiments from the military of Hesse-Kassel.

So that leaves me with the question, lets say I'm Gustavus Adolphus how would I go about recruiting mercenaries for my army? Would this be any different if I were the Emperor? Who would I try and recruit (either Gustavus or the Emperor)? Were there more prestigious bands that I would go after?

spinosaurs70

why did nazis think of the thirty years war?

LainTheMane

What was the role of the Italian city states during the thirty years war? On one hand they are devoutly catholic, but on the other they feared Hapsburg dominance. What did they do? I am more specifically interested in the Papal States and Venice

LordHussyPants

How were alliances in the war decided? I know the Swedish fought with Scottish troops, while Denmark and Norway thought on the side of Germany and Spain, and that many other states were involved(I picked these as the most diverse ones I saw).

Why was this? Was it for religious reasons? Political? Both? Family relations?

IllusiveSelf

How united was the HRE during this time, or perhaps centralised or imperial-lead are better. Did the Emperor have strong powers in military and foreign matters while leaving other matters to the lesser princes for instance, or was the Imperial side as shambolic as it is stereotyped as?

knatten555

Hey! So you guys know any good documentaries/similarly stuff about the 30 year wars and other Swedish history? Can be both in Swedish and English. I'm also interested in books about it. Ofc I will read this with great interest as my school failed to cover it properly during history and I have the interest in it!

LittleBrownNugget

Who won the Thirty Years War?