Normans vs Anglo-Saxons: Who Disrupted British Culture/Language/History More? [Tolkien-related]

by Kiltmanenator

I've heard here and there that Tolkien always hated that William the Bastard bested King Harold at the Battle of Hastings in 1066, because he felt that it prevented a full flourishing of Anglo-Saxon culture and allowed French to "pollute" the language (for more detail on that opinion, scroll to the last section of this post). I have two primary questions:

Q1) To what extent was Tolkien correct that the Norman Conquest prevented a full flourishing of Anglo-Saxon culture by introducing French nobility, ideas, and language to the British Isles?

I always thought it odd that Tolkien, a linguist and scholar, would be so distressed that the Normans upset the Anglo-Saxon applecart, so to speak, when the Angles, Saxons, and other Germanic tribes upset the “native” British applecart. This leads to my second question:

Q2) With respect to the breadth, depth, timeline, and methods of influence: were the arrivals of the Angles/Saxons/other Germanic tribes substantively different than the arrival of the Normans? If so, how? Is Tolkien unfairly bemoaning the French/Norman influence while dismissing the Germanic influence? Perhaps the English penchant for Francophobia is rearing its ugly head here?


I’ve found the following threads that contain similar information, and these are the closest answers I could find, but none of them quite hit the mark I’m aiming at (a comparison between Norman and Anglo-Saxon “disruption”):

“I know nothing about genetics. I'm not sure what you mean by "Brittonic," which usually refers to a Celtic language group. The Anglo-Saxons crushed the Celtic inhabitants of England and very few traces of their culture influenced that of the ruthless Angles, Saxons, and Jutes who overran them. The early Germanic invaders seemed to have used some the leftovers of Roman organization, that the Celts were still using, as early forms of organization for themselves, but beyond there there was very little influence. The Celts were pushed to the far corners of the country and/or enslaved (yes, the Anglo-Saxons, and everybody else at the time, had slaves). There was no feeling of kinship with the Normans, who were perhaps just as cruel to the Anglo-Saxons as they were to the Celtic tribes”.


“by the eleventh century all the names recorded in the Domesday Book were either Norman, Anglo-Saxon or Anglo-Danish would suggest that the Britons were successful assimilated……Likewise for language, though I doubt that all British culture died out in their entirety or in a short span of time, it is only because our sources don't tell us about these things that we think this. More likely, the process of transformation probably lasted centuries, rather than decades.


”This supports the old stories of the Anglo-Saxons pushing elements of the Romano-British into those regions which they ultimately never conquered, allowing Romano-British/Celtic culture to continue there. While in the areas they more thoroughly conquered and colonised the remaining Romano-British were submerged into the Anglo-Saxon language, culture and ethnicity having much less of an impact on the modern English people than they did the Cornish or Welsh.

http://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/1ygv4a/to_what_extent_was_welsh_culture_affecting_by_the/

http://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/21d22n/in_anglosaxon_england_would_people_distinguish/

http://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/306l3k/why_do_the_english_people_identify_as_anglosaxons/

http://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/1s7wt1/why_haves_the_jutes_been_forgotten_in_the_anglo/


What people have said about what Tolkien said about the Norman Conquest

I’m trying at the moment to get some actual primary sources, but no luck yet. I realize it's hard to properly answer Q1 if we can't evaluate Tolkien's precise words, but this is the best I could find using The Great Google.

"Tolkien felt that his true culture had been crushed and forgotten"

"While still a schoolboy he gave a debate-club speech opposing the Norman Conquest."

From the Scull and Hammond The JRR Tolkien Companion and Guide

"Tolkien's antagonism to France, the French and the French language was due, in large part, to his regret that English culture was dislocated and nearly destroyed following the conquest of England by French-speaking Normans in 1066."

A "Straight Dope" forum led me to this [J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: Scholarship and Critical Assessment] (http://books.google.com/books?id=B0loOBA3ejIC&pg=PA459&lpg=PA459&dq=%22the+very+lexicon+tolkien+uses+in+his+own+fiction%22&source=bl&ots=hhBIeLceXg&sig=azwo3RBI0zd_IoDDri5GjJKa-Vo&hl=en&ei=1fkUTo25CZORgQefucH9BA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false)

For Tolkien, the Norman Conquest prevented the survival of a distinctly English language and corrupted the ideal of english life. Indeed, the very lexicon Tolkien uses in his own fiction seeks to moderate the linguistic impact of the Conquest; throughout his work he employs primarily words of Germanic (i.e. Old English) derivation over ones of more recent French or Latin origin

"Tolkien once corrected an impression that he deplored war by saying that it was not only modern warfare that he had in mind, but the cultural catastrophe of the Norman Conquest."

James123182

While I will avoid the first question, due to merely knowing less about the post-Norman Conquest period, I can answer the second to some degree.

The Anglo-Saxon (And Jutes, I will use Anglo-Saxon to refer to all three groups for simplicity's sake) Invasion was substantially different from the Norman Conquest in an important way. Where the Anglo-Saxons settled, roughly in the area which later became England, while the native population was not wiped out physically (Genetics prove this, and there were simply too many of them for men with swords and spear to have committed genocide against the natives on anything like the scale we know today), their culture receded into Cumbria, Wales, Cornwall and Pictland. Old English became the majority language, what burials survive tend to be Anglo-Saxon in style, houses began to be constructed in the Continental pit-house style... These are merely some of the things that changed during the period.

Essentially, a relatively small group of Germanic invaders, taking advantage of the chaos in Britain, had somehow managed to convince the locals by force or otherwise to begin taking on their customs, clothing, deities, and language, necessitating a later reconversion of the area by missionaries who coordinated with what survived of the (Rather unhappy and discordant) native British church.

Now, contrast this with the Norman Conquest. While changes were no doubt enforced on the newly conquered kingdom, and the language did change in some significant ways (Something which it seems Tolkien didn't like much), an awful lot stayed the same. William exploited the system of reeves and shires made by the Anglo-Saxons for extracting his taxes. Domesday Book would have been extremely difficult, if not almost impossible, without the pre-existing Anglo-Saxon systems that had already made such things as the Burghal Hidage, a document that documents around thirty Burhs (Fortification/towns), their size, food rents due, garrison numbers etc.

And most importantly, it didn't shatter the kingdom into many different competing kingdoms like the Anglo-Saxon invasion had. The Kingdom of England was an Anglo-Saxon construction, along with many of its institutions (Many county boundaries remained almost unchanged from Anglo-Saxon times until the 1970s).

So basically, while the Norman Conquest did change a lot of things in England and Britain in general, and it did wrench England's focus from the North Sea round to Continental Europe (Especially France), it didn't have as much of a cultural effect as the Anglo-Saxon invasion had.

Sources:
Chris Wickham; "The Inheritance of Rome"; Chapters 7, 19
Matthew Innes; "Introduction to Early Medieval Western Europe, 300-900. The Sword, the Plough and the Book"; Chapter 8
James Campbell, Eric John, Patrick Wormald; "The Anglo-Saxons"; Chapters 1, 9, 10

Note: I still haven't learned how to source things properly, so if these are bad sourcing methods, please just tell me how I can do them better!

EDIT: A word

atomfullerene

You seem to be drawing a connection here that does not necessarily make sense: That if Tolkien thought the Norman invasion was bad for displacing Anglo-Saxon culture, he must logically also think the Anglo-Saxon culture was bad for displacing the pre-existing Romano-British culture. But this assumes that Tolkien's problem with the Normans was the displacement itself, and that if one displacement was bad, a different displacement ought to be equally bad.

I don't think you can safely make this assumption. Tolkien liked Anglo-saxon culture for its own sake. He may have seen a displacement that removed it as bad, not because it was one culture displacing another (to a greater or lesser or more or less violent extent), but specifically because it was Anglo-Saxon culture that was being removed. From this point of view, a different displacement that increased or initiated the culture he preferred would have been beneficial, not bad.

Or by comparison, if you liked rock music, and complained when a rock music station changed to country-western, I wouldn't expect you to be equally upset about how the station had initially switched from jazz to rock, even if the change in musical form had been just as drastic.

vancity-

Didn't the Norse invasions also have a large impact on the formation of the English language? I was under the impression that Norsemen formed families with the local population, merging the languages.