Were the Allies the bad guys in WW2 (in Europe)?

by calvinhobbesliker

I've been reading this thread for a while: http://www.axisandallies.org/forums/index.php?topic=35592.0

In it, KurtGodel7 is basically arguing that the Allies were the bad guys in WW2. He's made a lot of very long posts, but I think the gist of his argument seems to rely on the following points:

Before WW2 started, the Soviets had murdered more people than the Germans (e.g, the Ukraine famine).

A lot the Allies (UK, France, US, Czechoslovakia) were friendly to the Soviets, who were planning to conquer Germany.

Poland had an anti-German foreign policy, edged on by false promises from the Entente (who didn't attack Germany after declaring war and didn't even declare war on Russia after she also invaded Poland). Poland also desired German territory, including East Prussia.

Once the war started, the British and other allies imposed a ford blockade of Germany. This prevented her from feeding all the people within her borders. Therefore, Germany decided to kill the "lesser" peoples (Jews, Poles, Slavs, etc.) in order to save the Germans from starving, since some people would have to die anyway. The Allies knew this would happen and thus are responsible for these deaths.

The Germans could not save these people by making peace, since they would have to unconditionally surrender, including to the Soviets.

A bunch of people have been arguing with him on the thread, but I don't find most of their responses that effective, especially since a lot of them consist of ad hominems. Is this view held by any historians? If not, how do you refute these arguments?

dyskolos

Let me say first that the "good guy/bad guy thing" is not very meaningful in history, especially when narrating wars. E.g. the Soviet Union first allied with Hitler in eating up Poland then fought the direst battle in the war against the Nazi; there was Dresden and there was Coventry. The list can go on forever: it's not the purpose of history to point out the baddies.

That said the arguments brought forth by KurtGodel7 are nothing else than Nazist apology, and quite false too.

  1. The Ukraine famine, or holomodor, is a terrible mass starvation which in Ukraine and many other countries is today considered a crime against humanity. And it's one of the main reasons we today consider Stalin a terrible stateman, a cruel ruler, briefly a baddie. But again, the death toll is not a measure of a nation's badness; and the misdeeds of the Soviet government do not annihilate those of Nazis.

  2. No Ally was friendly to the Soviets until the German invasion of Russia. Heck, UK and France even made the Spanish Republicans lose because of the influence Stalin had! UK and France did not invite the Soviets to the Munich Agreement in 1938! And in 1939 Germany and the USSR signed the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact of non aggression: yes, until 1941 and the operation Barbarossa, the Nazi were in amicable relation with the starver Stalin!

  3. The anti-German policy is the casus belli Nazis used to invade Czechoslovakia, Poland, and such. Now I don't know much of Poland in the 30's (except it was another authoritarian regime), and it is possible that something anti-teutonic happened), but it seems to me that KurtGodel7 is repeating the Nazi propaganda of war "to save the endangered German minorities". Remember also that it was Germany the expansionist nation who already gobbled up Austria, the Sudeten, Bohemia.

  • Lastly, to explain the Holocaust with the scarcity of food because of the British blockade is ridiculous. First, until 1942 the Axis was winning and it was the UK who was encircled and struggling with supplies. And the enslavement, exploitation and mass killing of Jews and Poles and Slaves was planned and executed well before time. Hell, the "you made me do it" is not an argument! And it's at best childish to think that the organised extermination of entire categories of people was just a severe measure to ensure the survival of the others. It does not account for the constant dehumanization, torture, theft, hatred and so on. Besides, Nazi Germany has not been the only country in history enduring a blockade.

To sum up, you have seen nazi propaganda at its best (i.e. worst). Nazi Germany was not the absolute evil, nor the only state to be responsible of cruel acts violating human rights and dignity, and Stalinist USSR was an equal. The fact is that it made a banner of it. Mass displacement, racism, planned extermination was theorized by Hitler and executed by his regime.

ParkSungJun

There are a lot of falsities here.

Before WW2 started, the Soviets had murdered more people than the Germans (e.g, the Ukraine famine).

This is the Genocide Olympics argument. Just because one group killed less people than the other group doesn't mean that they are better.

A lot the Allies (UK, France, US, Czechoslovakia) were friendly to the Soviets, who were planning to conquer Germany.

Yes, they were so friendly that they spent a good two or so years fighting the Soviets during the Russian Civil War and proceeded to refuse to diplomatically recognize them. This is at the same time that the Germans were secretly cooperating with helping to arm the Soviets, which doesn't even include the matter that the Germans helped Lenin get into Russia in the first place. Germany was one of the first countries to recognize the Soviet Union, whereas the US didn't until nearly ten years later.

Poland had an anti-German foreign policy, edged on by false promises from the Entente (who didn't attack Germany after declaring war and didn't even declare war on Russia after she also invaded Poland). Poland also desired German territory, including East Prussia.

Germany also desired Polish territory, including Posen/Poznan and Oestprussen, and Silesia. This was egged on by reactionary and fascist revanchists, including the German National People's Party and the Nazis. Germany also worked with Poland to seize pieces of Czechoslovakian territory as well in 1938.

Once the war started, the British and other allies imposed a ford blockade of Germany. This prevented her from feeding all the people within her borders. Therefore, Germany decided to kill the "lesser" peoples (Jews, Poles, Slavs, etc.) in order to save the Germans from starving, since some people would have to die anyway. The Allies knew this would happen and thus are responsible for these deaths.

The Germans were persecuting the Jews and other foreigners well before hostilities began in 1939. And they specifically went out of their way to build industrial death camps and used significant resources to massacre people. Hardly "starvation conditions."

The Germans could not save these people by making peace, since they would have to unconditionally surrender, including to the Soviets.

The Germans surprise attacked the Soviets 2 years after initial hostilities. This doesn't make any sense.

A bunch of people have been arguing with him on the thread, but I don't find most of their responses that effective, especially since a lot of them consist of ad hominems. Is this view held by any historians? If not, how do you refute these arguments?

These aren't arguments, these are just perversions of real history.