Why is historical Venice considered a republic but the Holy Roman Empire not considered one?

by TheGhostOfDiogenes

I was reading a bit about Italian republicanism on this very subreddit (mostly about Venice specifically), and I read a lot of answers about how we might not consider them republics today. For example one commenter said that at one point there may have been only up to 40 electors choosing the Doge! And further to be an elector you had to be in the "Golden Book" (or something to that effect) which only contained a set number of families based on noble titles.

But then the situation is similar to the HRE and its prince-electors, right? So why don't we consider the HRE to be a republic similar to Venice?

I thought about it, and I think it might be because Venice was more than happy to refer to itself as a republic, while the HRE would have rather not considered itself a republic (perhaps on account of the extra authority gleaned from being chosen by God rather than people). Anyway, I was pretty curious about it.

Thanks for taking the time to read this!

b3048099

For the population of Venice, 40 electors is a lot more than the 6 electors for the HRE, especially considering the size of the HRE. I am not sure why you think this is comparable. In fact, 40 electors for the population of Venice is probably more electors than the USA on a per population basis.

Edit: I dug up some stats.

From Encyclopedia.com: "The population of Venice dipped to 50,000 after the plague of 1348 and reached a high of 190,000 around 1570" So that would be 1,250 people per elector after the plague and 4,750 people per elector at the high.

In 1200 the HRE had about 5,000,000 people. This makes about 800,000 people per elector. The population only increased after this aside from losing territory.

The USA has 535 total members in the house and senate and a population of about 318,900,000. This makes about 600,000 people per member.

DeSoulis

But then the situation is similar to the HRE and its prince-electors, right? So why don't we consider the HRE to be a republic similar to Venice?

Because Republics don't refer to a state with an electoral process, Republics referred to a state where the head of state is not a monarch. The Holy Roman Empire is explicit in that it is headed by an emperor, an emperor, even if elected does not mean that a state is a republic. Similarly, a state is a republic with an unelected president. Republics don't have to be democratic and Monarchies don't have to be undemocratic.

To give modern day examples, China is a Republic but does not have real electoral politics, while the UK is a democratic non-Republic.

Not that either the HRE nor Venice were democratic of course.

allak

The question is not (only) about how the head of the state is chosen, it is also about what the role of the head of the state is.

The Emperor of the HRE was an absolute monarch, the Doge of Venice was certainly a powerful figure in the government of Venice, but there were quite a number of other bodies of government, with a very complicated system of check and balances.