Announcement Double Feature: Introducing the "No 'First'/'Last'" Rule | Introducing the "Short Answers to Simple Questions' Recurring Feature

by Georgy_K_Zhukov

Hello everyone!

Today we will be implementing a change to the submission rules, and will no longer be allowing questions which are asking for the specific instance of the 'First' or 'Last' iteration of a thing or phenomenon. These have been some of the most problematic questions that we get in this subreddit, and after some very lengthy discussion within the mod team, the decision has been made to add the following to our Rules Page:

No 'First'/'Last' Questions

Questions which specifically ask for the first or last known instance/example of an object/phenomenon/etc. will be removed. Past experience has shown these questions aren't well suited to /r/AskHistorians. Such questions often end up with speculative answers, either because the first simply wasn't recorded by history, or because answering the question requires historians to have detailed knowledge across numerous eras and specialties. Alternatively, if the question is answerable, it often doesn't lend itself to the detail and context we expect from answers on this subreddit. As such, these questions are banned.

We still welcome questions which ask about rises and falls in a general sense, so we request that users keep their questions focused on origins or declines. For example, a question such as "Who was the first person to kill someone else with a gun?" is a problematic one to answer - we may not even know the answer - but "What do we know about the early development and use of firearms?" covers the same ground, without the same issues.

For those who nevertheless are specifically looking for 'First'/'Last' answers, we do run a "Short Answers to Simple Questions" thread every other Wednesday where these questions are still allowed.

The wording of the rule should hopefully be somewhat self-explanatory as to its reason and application, but this is /r/AskHistorians, so we're going to break it down a little bit more for you below.

The most important thing to be aware of is that this rule will be applied fairly narrowly. The intent is to target a very specific class of questions which are quite ill-suited to the format of /r/AskHistorians. A question which, to use the example from above, asks "Who was the first person to kill someone else with a gun?" is going to be a problem whether there is a known answer or not. If we don't know, the threads quickly fill with speculative responses, or "The first one I know of" answers, which end up removed. If we do know - and this puts aside the additional issue of 'absolute' first versus 'first known' - the question can be answered in a mere sentence, i.e. "Liao Bao was the first person to be shot with a firearm, in 1257." But that simply creates more problems, as it comes in conflict with the rules and aim of the subreddit. An answer which would be allowed to stand would be one which at the very least provides background and context for his death. Taken together, this results in many threads which are the proverbial graveyard, and a disproportionate number which never receive an answer.

Generally speaking, our stated policy has always been to try and maintain a light touch with how questions are formulated and asked. As with the Example Seeking Rule, we do at times need to strike a balance when a specific type just becomes too troublesome - and that is what we are doing here. Our intention is not to entirely prevent these questions in a broader sense, but to ensure that they are better focused to comply with the format of the subreddit. As is made clear in the wording of the rule, and as will also be explained in the Removal Macro deployed in conjunction with enforcement, we want to encourage people to think about what the underlying topic of their question is, and strongly encourage people to resubmit the question to ask about the broader milieu. To return to the example, an answer to "What do we know about the early development and use of firearms?" would quite possibly include the answer to the original formulation if it is known, while certainly avoiding the speculation about that fact if it is not.

Conversely, when it comes to 'Last' questions, similar problems of course can crop up, but there is the additional issue of 'Fading out but not yet gone'. Something might have gone out of general use a long, long time ago, but still sees use in some limited form today, resulting in answers which blow past the 20 Year Rule. By having questions focus on 'Decline' instead of 'Last', it allows the questions to briefly touch on continued use to the present (which is allowable under the 20 Year Rule!) without entirely blowing by it and focusing solely on that (Which isn't!).

So in short, we want 'First'/'Last' questions to focus on the broader origins, development, declines, and falls which underpin what would make those examples the first or last of their kind, which in essence does nothing more than to bring these questions in-line with how they are moderated anyways. If you are having trouble asking a question in this way though, the mod team is always standing by to offer some advice, so don't hesitate to reach out.


Now that all being said, we realize that while some people ask these questions because, well, it can be hard to ask a question about a topic you don't know about, there are also people who ask these questions because that literally is all they really want to know. To be perfectly frank, those situations can be rather frustrating for the mods, and rather off-putting for the flairs. When the answer to the question is going to be the first result of putting the question title into Google, it leads to the feeling that little thought was put into asking the question, which in turn leads to the irony that the simplest questions are often the ones which go unanswered. Or put another way, "Who was the first President of the United States?" might have 50 comments all saying "George Washington" but they will all be removed, while "Why was George Washington elected as the first President of the USA?" might have only one comment, but it will be visible and explain why he became the president.

So we can't know why a given question is being asked like that, but while laziness is likely the answer for some, we'd like to believe that most of them are because while the question might be quite specific and not call for anything in-depth as a response, it being asked here is purposeful, as the user still wants more than whatever Google tells them. So to this end we are going to try to be accommodating, and if anything, actually make the subreddit a little more friendly towards these types of questions. In conjunction with the implementation of the rule, we are also going to be making the "Short Answers to Simple Questions" a more permanent feature. We ran this last month as a test run, and it worked reasonably well, as well as gave us some insight into the kinks we need to iron out. We're going to put it into the rotation of regular features, alternating on Wednesdays with the "What's New" feature, starting later this week on the 7th. The hope is to be able to provide a space for reliable answers to questions which otherwise wouldn't be a good fit for /r/AskHistorians, and not just 'First'/'Last', but also plenty of other questions about simple facts or figures.


So that is the sum of it. We're restricting specific questions about 'First'/'Last', and implementing a "Short Answers to Simple Questions" Feature to complement this rule. Our hope is that the two in conjunction will both improve the quality of threads in the subreddit, as well as increase the breadth of coverage that the subreddit offers. It is doubtful that every question you might have about this new rule has been covered, however, so if there is anything that remains unanswered after reading through here, please don't hesitate to ask here.

Eternally65

How much time do you put into r/AskHistorians?

I'm not complaining at all, I'm just curious. I really appreciate it, personally.

aidirector

What was the last "First/Last" question to be approved on /r/AskHistorians?

brigantus

I'm disappointed that you guys have decided to put further restrictions on questions, and don't understand the logic behind this one at all. Questions about firsts are not only perfectly answerable in prehistoric archaeology, they're often very important and active topics of research (e.g. first use of fire, first agriculture, first metallurgy, first cities, etc). I've read (and written) lots of interesting answers to "first..." questions here over the years, including this one from just yesterday:

Even if the answer is "we don't know", that can be turned into a productive discussion on why we don't know, whether we'll ever know, and/or what the limits of possibility are. Please reconsider whether this new rule is making the sub better, or making it easier to moderate.

hborrgg

Liao Bao was the first person to be shot with a firearm, in 1257

Actually I think you'll find that the first person killed by a fire arm was Ook-uk the Impolite, who was beaten to death by a smouldering tree branch in 80,000 BC.

Joking aside, I can see the advantages of this rule and I trust that the mods can tell the difference between low-effort questions looking for a one-sided trivia tidbit and quality questions that just happen to have "last" in the title.

The issue I tend to see with a lot of answers to these first/last questions is that the answer often requires a lot of context to be really understood. Even if we had the name of the first man killed by a gunpowder arrow in 10th century china, was it really that big of a leap over people being killed by regular arrows? Similarly a question such as "When was the longbow last used in wars?" tends to invite a lot of one or two sentence responses about Jack Churchill. And while I'd be very interested in reading a detailed post about Churchill's life and character, the fact that he chose to use a longbow probably says a lot more about him than it does about the military relevance of longbows during World War II.

SilverRoyce

I think this is a good change especially since it's narrowly tailored.

TheJucheisLoose

Hm. While I understand that it can be challenging to answer certain formulations of questions, it seems a shame to cut these out, because questions like these often lead to a discussion of the historiography of a particular subject, which I think is valuable. If someone asks who the first/last X/Y was/is, and we don't know, it seems to me that it's okay to say: "We don't know, but there are several possible answers and here's how we've come to those answers. Here's some of the debate around those findings and different schools of thought on which truly is the first/last and how those conclusions were reached."

As you have it now, people must ask general questions: "What is the early/late history of X?" and that is going to tend to lead to less historiographic discussions and more lists of facts. For example: "The earliest known X was Y, after that, it moved on to Z, etc." As someone who strongly believes history is not a set of objective facts, but an argument among competing theories, this worries me a bit.

I understand the scholars here are vastly more educated and formally trained than I am, but I thought I'd raise these points.

NoMoreNicksLeft

If someone were to want to know the answer for "when was the last telegram sent"... how could they ask this without violating the above rule?

Certainly there is an interesting history there and quite a bit to say about the circumstances of the premise (even if it violates the 20 yr rule it won't always do that).

Is it truly a bad question that shouldn't be asked here, or is it a matter of asking it properly?

svaroz1c

Forgive me, but this is getting ridiculous.

I think a part of studying history should be acceptance of the fact that there are some things which we simply cannot and will not know for sure. Just because some questions cannot be accurately answered does not, by itself, make them bad questions. I don't understand this preoccupation with rooting out "speculative" answers since speculation is the first step to gaining knowledge of things we don't yet know. If it's educated speculation based on things we already mostly know, how is that bad? If we banned everything we didn't know for certain, denouncing it as "unscientific", science itself would cease to exist.

This new rule will do this subreddit and community no favors, in my opinion.