Was the father of philosophy Thales of Miletus Greek or Phoenician?

by oversandcel

According to Herodotus Thales was from a Phoenician family but many other philosophers imply he's a native of Miletus. Also it's been said Thales' name and his parents names are of Greek and Carian origin.

Can someone clear this up?

PytheasTheMassaliot

The short answer is: we're not sure, but it's likely Thales came from a Phoenician family that migrated to Miletus. As far as I know, Herodotus is the earliest source we have that talks about Thales. And even this source is written about a hundred years after Thales had already died. So we have very little to base a clear answer to this question.

Now for the more interesting long answer. First it must be mentioned that the Milesians in the time of Thales did not call or consider themselves first and foremost as 'Greek', they would call themselves Milesians first, and Ionians second. At the same time, the people we now call Phoenicians, also never called themselves that. Second, it's important to understand that ethnic categories such as Greek, Phoenician, Carian were in reality not as clear-cut as they seem. The area around Miletus was inhabited since the neolithic, thousands of years before there were Greeks or Phoenicians. Already during the Bronze Age and later Archaic Age, Miletus was a powerful regional city with a rich history. The people who lived there were probably a changing mixture of people we would now call Lydians, Myceneans, Minoans, Carians, Phoenicians, Greeks, ...

So how can we determine if someone was Greek or Phoenician (keeping in mind that these are categories of a later date and not used by the historical people we're talking about)?

First off, language. Miletus was part of the Ionian League. This was a defensive/religious alliance between twelve independent city-states on the western coast of what is now Turkey. They (or at least the elites of these cities) spoke the Ionian dialect of Greek. But even between the cities of the Ionian League there were many differences in dialect. Ionian Greek was also spoken in Athens, and many Ionians had the notion that they were the descendants of Athenians that migrated across the Aegean Sea. But this idea is not to be taken too literal and mostly a result of Athenian expansion in the centuries after Thales. The Athenians tried to expand their power and a semi-legendary common origin was a successful way of making alliances.

That brings us to population and migrations. The Ionian migration into the region probably occurred around the 11th century BCE. These people presumably came mostly from Attica and Boeotia. The way in which they mingled and lived together with the existing populations is uncertain and most likely happened in different ways each time according to the circumstances. In other instances of Greek migrations we see that they could marry into the local families, they could live together on relatively equal footing, they could go to war and chase off or enslave the people, and everything in between. In whatever way it happened, in these twelve cities, the Greek culture became the dominant culture during the following centuries.

Miletus, like the other city-states of the Ionian League, had a political organisation based on different tribes. It seems there were six tribes. Four of them would have their origin in Greece and two would be local. How large these groups were, or what differences in social standing they had is unfortunately not clearly known. Nevertheless, this shows us that, even though Milesians would later consider themselves Greek (or at least Ionian), their origins are very murky and any idea about ethnic heterogeneity was mostly an ideal not at all reflected in reality.

About a century before the birth of Thales, Greek pottery entered a phase called the Orientalizing Period. During this time many cultural influences from the eastern mediterranean entered the Greek speaking communities. It is very likely that a major driving force of these cultural developments were traders and craftsmen who originated in the Phoenician city-states such as Tyre, Sidon, Byblos and had contacts with Greek cities and towns. At first, Phoenician traders would visit and conduct business in these towns (and Miletus was a very important crossroads of the mediterranean trade). Later, these traders would settle down and create small industries and trade hubs. There's no question these traders and craftsmen were at first looked at as foreigners, but they could amass considerable wealth and were probably at times able to secure citizenship and an important place in their new homes.

So where does that leave us with Thales? If we look at the language, Thales was Greek. For most Greeks, language was the first and most important thing that distinguishes Greeks from barbarians. Since Thales lived in a city dominated and inhabited mostly by people who spoke Ionian Greek, he would have spoken this language as well.

That Thales was of Phoenician origin, as Herodotus and others mention, is also possible. Lots of Phoenicians spread out across the mediterranean in the centuries before Thales. As traders and craftsmen, some of them were able to become quite rich and secure citizenship and prominent places in the societies they migrated to. That Thales is a descendent of Phoenician migrants is therefore perfectly imaginable.

In conclusion: was Thales Greek of Phoenician? The answer is most likely: both, with countless caveats about the complexity of ancient ethnicity and identity.

Main sources:

Roebuck, C. 'Tribal Organization in Ionia' (1961).

Greaves, A. M. 'The Land of Ionia' (2010).

And of course the Histories of Herodotus.

AncientHistory

Hi there - normally we would your question, because /r/AskHistorians isn't here to do your homework for you. However, our rules DO permit people to ask for help with their homework, so long as they are seeking clarification or resources, rather than the answer itself. Since you already have an answer, we are letting this question stand...and you will be banned for seven days.

If you have indeed asked a homework question, you should consider resubmitting a question more focused on finding resources and seeking clarification on confusing issues: tell us what you've researched so far, what resources you've consulted, and what you've learned, and we are more likely to approve your question. Please see this Rules Roundtable thread for more information on what makes for the kind of homework question we'd approve. Additionally, if you're not sure where to start in terms of finding and understanding sources in general, we have a six-part series, "Finding and Understanding Sources", which has a wealth of information that may be useful for finding and understanding information for your essay. Finally, other subreddits are likely to be more suitable for help with homework - try looking for help at /r/HomeworkHelp.

Alternatively, if you are not a student and are not doing homework, we have removed your question because it resembled a homework question. It may resemble a common essay question from a prominent history syllabus or may be worded in a broad, open-ended way that feels like the kind of essay question that a professor would set. Professors often word essay questions in order to provide the student with a platform to show how much they understand a topic, and these questions are typically broader and more interested in interpretations and delineating between historical theories than the average /r/AskHistorians question. If your non-homework question was incorrectly removed for this reason, we will be happy to approve your question if you wait for 7 days and then ask a less open-ended question on the same topic.