Hi r/AskHistorians! We are u/Iphikrates and /u/joshobrouwers, known offline as Dr. Roel Konijnendijk and Dr. Josho Brouwers. We're here to answer all your questions about the Trojan War, warfare in early Greece, and stack wiping noobs like a basileus.
Josho Brouwers wrote a PhD thesis on Early Greek warfare, in which the Homeric poems and Early Greek art were integral components. He has also taught courses on ancient Greek mythology, Homer, and the Trojan War, and wrote Henchmen of Ares: Warriors and Warfare in Early Greece (2013) as well as another book (in Dutch) on Greek mythology. He is editor-in-chief of Ancient World Magazine.
Roel Konijnendijk is a historian of Classical Greek warfare and historiography, and the author of Classical Greek Tactics: A Cultural History (2018). He is currently a Marie Curie Postdoctoral Fellow at Leiden University, studying the long history of scholarship on Greek warfare.
Ask us anything!
The Iliad famously claims that the siege of Troy lasted 10 years.
What were earliest Greek siege tactics like?
And how were armies provisioned? How long could an expeditionary force be expected to be supported? When were there sophisticated enough logistics to support armies overseas?
stack wiping noobs like a basileus.
How were these 'stacks' assembled? Or in other words, how was recruitment conducted? Did individual 'heroic' lords bring retinues independently? Would there be 'sub-retinues', with certain more powerful lords having other lords in their retinue that had their own? Or am I completely off?
What were the consequences of defeat in the Trojan war? Were the lords and regular combatants affected more or less homogeneously or was there a stark difference? I here imagine the consequences for the Greeks in a hypothetical counterfactual scenario. This is relevant for video game simulation as it is a non-deterministic environment (i.e. sometimes you win and sometimes you lose!).
How different was warfare between Mycenean Greece and Ancient Greece? I know that chariots were widely used but how does an army center itself around chariots instead of infantry (phalanx)?
We touched on Mycenaean warfare briefly in my undergrad, and as far as I could make it out, the basic source material was pretty fragmentary - you had the Shaft Grave weapons, the Dendra Panoply, the RCT tablets at Knossos and a few wall paintings at Pylos, plus however much extrapolation from the Iliad that the author dared make. How much primary evidence is there when you're studying Mycenaean warfare, and how do you approach issues of variation over time and space?
Do we have evidence of a wider conflict during that era in the area surrounding Troy or is that the only spot we have found with concrete evidence dating to the rough period of the Iliad?
I teach Greek history (as part of E hemisphere) to middle schoolers- what’s the one thing I probably don’t know that I can blow their minds with?
It’s been a long time since I read the Iliad, but I seem to remember a lot of people knocked down by thrown rocks and a lot of looting and armour-stripping. Is this part and parcel of ‘heroic’ warfare or something else?
What about ordinary people? Are they going about their lives while the elites are warring or are the populations in ‘total war’?
Well for one, who were the Trojans as an ethnicity? I’ve heard some claim they were Luwians, others that they’re distant relatives of the Greeks. Furthermore, how much truth is there to Trojans such as Aeneas fleeing to places like Rome? Is there evidence the Romans are descended from the Trojans? Finally, is it possible that Troy was a vassal of the Hittites?
I always had difficulty imagining what the walls of Troy (or any significantly fortified place of the period) might look like. What does 'impenetrable to early Greek armies' actually mean in practical terms?
Are there any hints of confirmation if Helen of Troy eloped or was abducted?
Hello. Thank you for doing this AMA.
1- In Troy (2004) there is a scene that Achilles talk about how he "sees the faces of men he killed every night in his sleep". Do we know how real Ancient Greek warriors felt about taking another warrior's life? Do you they ever express how cruel and bloody war is? Or how hard it is to kill other people?
2- Tyler Mane who plays Ajax in Troy (2004) is huge (6 ft 9 in). Were Ancient Greek warriors really this big? Did generals really prefer scary-looking warriors? Even Assassin's Creed Odyssey include warriors that big. Is this accurate or did most warriors simply looked like this?
I just wanted to say that what you guys do on Ancient World Magazine is amazing. I read every single one of Dr. Josho Brouwers articles on Assassin's Creed Odyssey a few months ago and I have to say they are fascinating. Very detailed and insightful.
Were any of the heroes of the story real? Thank you.
Would it still be possible to find big historic findings around the battlezone(s)?
Though im certainly no expert on any historical stuff (so i may be entirely wrong) i feel like our knowledge on the bronze age is rather limited compared to later periods like the classical or late antiquity making this time period a bit mysterious (and thus quite fascinating). Is this something that might be redeemed at some point in the future when further excavations have taken place and more advanced methods and technology can be applied during research or is there just not enough to work with to eventually get a similar understanding of their cultures?
Also how highly developed were those societies before the bronze age collapse compared to say the Greek people of the 5th century BC?
any movies or tv shows that you feel have the most realistic portrayal of late bronze-age combat? Movies like Troy (2004) are obviously cinematic and CGI, but was it any different from say, the Roman empire?
Hi there! I've recently read the Iliad and the Odyssey for an ancient epic class where we also grappled a bit with the Homeric question. One thing that stuck out to me was the two books depictions of chariots. Namely, the Iliad uses them as taxis, but one line in the Odyssey by Penelope states they are 'the most dreaded vehicles of war' (or something close to that). Could you guys comment on why the two epics disagree on chariots, or why chariots weren't utilized in warfare in the poems? I'd also like to hear your opinion on whether Penelope's comment firmly roots the Odyssey at a much later date of composition? Thanks!!
Do we have an estimate on how high rates of dead and wounded would be in a battle?
What were common meals like during that time? Did lower soldiers get lower quality food? How did rhey maintain supplies?
I've always been obsessed with Achilles. I obviously know the folklore behind his "Achilles heel", but where does the idea come from? Did he actually die from one random arrow in the ankle?
What was the distinction between the Trojans and the Hittites? And why did the latter not get more involved in the conflict?
As someone who does Historical Eurioean Martial Arts, I was wondering how much is known about the training regimen for phalanxes and the general use of spear and shield. A spear is quite unwieldy if you only have one arm, what is known about the approach to teach shield and spear combat?
Could the tale of agemenmon returning and being murdered by his wife be a retelling/allegorical to the fall of Mycenaean Greece? One of the main theories I've heard is that civil disobedience and internal discontent (of course with environmental catastrophies etc)caused the collapse of the palace system.
As you've mentioned the total war game, what units have texture elements (including weapons, armour) that look like what archeologists believe to be period appropriate? Helen's face and make up was based on a Mycenaean death mask, for instance
Was Memnon, a king from Ethiopia, actually involved in the Trojan war? What was he doing there? Did the Trojan's diplomacy networks stretch that far?
What is the strongest link that we have between the Homers poems and the archeological evidence?
In the game you can recruit a variety of types of soldiers with varying armored classes (ie two-handed light spear infantry, heavy sword and shield infantry, light club infantry). From what I know of the Bronze Age, having anything metal was almost a luxury, and professional armies like those we see during the Iron Age were almost nonexistent. Would there really have been such a wide array of weapons and armors during this time period, or would most of the soldiers have been militia-type soldiers who picked up clubs or farming tools?
where are we in terms of deciphering Mycenaean texts
Is their any proof to the stories that Trojan survivors founded other major cities (rome/carthage)?
If the siege of Troy lasted years, how did the greek invaders managed to sustain their armies as an invading force? Did they hunt? Fished? Raided? Did they settle somewhere near Troy?
And how advanced were Troy food storage? Did they starve during the siege? Is there any evidence they had a shortage (or abundance) of food?
Pardon my english, and congrats on the post! I’m loving to read every question and answer!
Virgil has Andromache in the Aeneid but of course Virgil's work is highly problematic. There's not much known about Andromache post-Troy. My girlfriend is a classics nerd and a huge fan of bronze age history, with Andromache as a particular favorite.
What happened to Andromache during and after the Trojan war?
Hey u/Iphikrates and /u/joshobrouwers , I really appreciate your AMA!
Somewhere else in this thread you mentioned that it was likely a common practise to raze cities to the ground after you conquered them. Now as the Greeks did believe in the same pantheon of gods, I was wondering if you have any suggestion on how this fits together, as the razing and plundering of those temples would lead to them angering their gods in their own eyes. Wouldn't there be resistance within the conquerors army to touch these temples?
I understand that there is probably not much information available to really give any definitive answer, but I would love it if you could provide me with some speculation. Thanks!
How did people decide what "hero" they were descended from later? Alexander claimed to be descended from Achilles, if I remember right, and others made similar claims (like the Romans claiming to be from Troy,) so what gave those claims enough weight to not just be laughed at?
Hey great AMA. Im not sure if its been asked...sorry if repeated... but how true is the Trojan horse story. Id imagine a small detatchment of soldiers could easily fit inside a large horse gift but what use they would be against a garrisoned citadel im not sure. I suppose open the gates and let the army through would work but youd have to have got your army pretty close to the walls or the detachment would be slaughtered and the gates closed again.
How many times do we believe Troy/Wilosa was rebuilt? Which layer do we believe was the period of the war?
And who do we think the Sea Peoples were, Phonecians?
Hey there! Thanks for doing this AMA!
I've seen quite a few people complain that "A Total War Saga: Troy" lacks naval battles.
Was naval warfare (aside from the occasional bout of piracy) a feature of the Bronze Age Aegean?
Hi, if the Trojan War happened, was it actually a unified coalition of Greeks, and if so, what was the nature of such an alliance and how common were Greek grand coalitions in Ancient Greece?
So in most previous total war games it was always hinted that infantry equipped with a sword and a shield would win against a similarly priced unit equipped with spears and shields yet spears were more effective against mounted units.
Was bronze age warfare in Mycenaean Greece and the Hittite civilizations of Anatolia the same? Because it seems to me that spears were the main armament of infantry and swords were just sidearms and so it is depicted in Troy (the game).
Were spears the main battle lines and the all-round standard armament and if so then why? Cost compared to swords? Ease of use and range?
Hisarlik Level VIIa or Level VIIb (there was no definite consensus when I was an undergrad)?
Is there any scholarly research into the idea that the "Sea Peoples" were Achilles and co staying busy and raiding for supplies to keep the army on the plain at Troy supplied? I seem to remember hearing about this idea during a conference on the Bronze Age collapse.
Did the Trojans worship any deities unique to their civilization? The Iliad, a Greek epic, details Greek gods who sided with the Trojans. But do we have any records or suggestions of a "Trojan pantheon" with gods the Achaeans might not have recognized?
What evidence do we need to find in order to say without any certainty that Achilles was a real, historical figure?
Hi Roel and Josho! Hope you guys are well. What do you think are some important unexplored topics of bronze age, archaic or classical greek history?
I was recently in Albania and was surprised by the amount of Greek history and ruins. What was the significance of this region to the Greeks and why were wars fought over it? Other than an entry point to Greece, it seemed to not have many natural resources an invader might want
Thanks for doing this guys. How do you feel about the theory that the Trojan horse is symbolism for an earthquake (horse --> Poseidon --> earthquakes)?
Somewhat unrelated question: I have read somewhere that Poseidon played a much bigger role in the Mycenaean pantheon compared to the Greeks. Do we have an intimate knowledge of the Mycenaean religion, and how it would compare to the religion of the Wilusians/Luwians/Hittites/Anatolians in general? How do these pantheons compare to what we see in the Illiad?
I’ve always been confused about how Menelaus became king of Sparta through marriage to Helen. Do we know why the throne didn’t go to one of Helen’s brothers instead? Is there evidence for matrilineal succession in Mycenaean times?
Did every single Mycenaean city get destroyed during the Bronze Age Collapse?
Do you guys think the sea people’s were mostly Mycenaeans who destroyed each other in civil war then decided to go elsewhere to plunder?
How common was the boar tooth helmet? Was it something nobility would have worn or was it a substandard option to bronze? It seems something that would have been incredibly painstaking to create and fit, so why not just use a bronze helm?
Were organized military formation and military step common in ancient Greece?
Most of the time when I think of Bronze age warfare, I think of Chariots. Chariots don't seem common in most depictions of the Trojan War. Did the Greeks not use them?
Realistically speaking, how powerful was Sparta in this time period?
Was the phalanx an effective military strategy? Were there alternative formations used?
How did stories developed to have similar myths in different parts of the world thousands of years ago?
Indian Mahabharat has a character, Duryodhan, whose mom makes his body invincible except his thighs which brings his death, similar to Achilles.
Hey I am a 16 year old kid from Denmark, in my future I want to become an archaeologist, I am interested in all sorts of history from all time periods, even stuff that predates homosapiens, may I hear some cool or interesting facts about the time period, or Maybe just something that people might Think is myth but isn’t. Thank you much love!!
Forgive me if this was asked before, or if it is facetious of me to ask, but:
Did the myths of the Minotaur, Cyclops, Furies, Centaur, Giants, Sirens, etc have any impact on the Trojan war? As far as I am aware, the majority of mythical creatures were self-contained in their stories, but I am not at all familiar with everything pertaining to them, and thus do not know how much of an impact they had.
Is there any archeological or historical proof that the story about the Trojan horse is real?
What's the real story about Helena and did they really start total war because of her?
Why did epics get written about the Trojan war? Why did those stories become so dominant?
Iirc, in the Iliad the Trojans are somehow hellenized as in they worship the same greek pantheon and are favoured by them, etc? Was this common to how other people were treated in greek writings? Does this imply some sort of deeper connection, or were they just hittites that didn't fit Homer's writing?
Sorry if it was a bit rambley, I guess I'm asking how foreign were the trojans to the greeks.
Hello,
Was Troy built on an older settlement?
What was diameter of city walls? What were other dimensions?
How tall were highest city buildings?
Why do you think the Trojan War has continued to captivate audiences from Homer’s time to today?
Please elaborate on what the Iliad and later works/commentary say on Achilles and Patroclus' relationship
Noob question: is there any chance the story of the trojan war is related to the bronze age collapse?
Why can’t my computer run the game?!
But in all seriousness, I just finished an RAship for a prof at my institution, providing a basic historiographical review of slavery in the Greco-Roman world (the prof was double checking to make sure nobody has earlier made the argument they hope to make about slavery and the science of quantification in a later period), and was wondering if there is any evidence (documentary or archaeological) of a mass influx of slaves to Mycenae, Chios, or Athens around this time?
Thanks for taking the time for this AMA! As a lay person with interest, while there's a lot of stuff that equates Illium to Troy, how much does the ancient city actually match the myth? The record seems unclear about actual warfare.
I also listened to a history podcast that made a brief mention of an Achaean sword found that bore a Hittite inscription that would seem to indicate early Greeks were taking part in uprisings in the Hittite empire. Unfortunately he didn't provide a reference, are you familiar with the artifact?
I come with a rather specific, Iliad-related question - is there any indication as to why Diomedes is rather neglected outside of Iliad, despite being one of the epic's most powerful characters?
Thanks for this AMA.
Now for the question.
The Total War game Troy has decided to depict the mythological elements in the Iliad and the Odyssean through something the developers call "the Truth behind the Myth." Basically, instead of an actual Minotaur fighting on the battle field you have a very large man wearing a bullhead helmet. Centaurs are men on horseback, harpies are female warriors adorned with feathers and so on.
It would be interesting to get your take on this approach as seen from an academic perspective. Is it at all plausible that was the way some of these myth began. Is there any archaeological evidence or historical sources that supports this approach? In other word is there any truth behind the myth?
Did Troy's power come from controlling the Dardanelles similar to Constantinople?
Did warriors of the time do any deliberate strength training or was that just for competitive athletes?
r/Iphikrates in a recent post said the Iliad is definitively a historical fiction. How can this be definitively said? Of course it is in part as r/Iphikrates states regarding the gods and goddesses. However, this seems no different than many historical/religious texts that have a mythic aspect and a historical one. Of course it's influenced by the time and place in which it is written, but can it not be said at least in part to be an exaggerated account of the events. A few hundred years separate Homer and the supposed time of the Trojan War, correct? Is it not entirely possible an oral tradition maintained in part some historical record? Homer(s) account is at times very graphic and detailed leading one to believe it's something more than simply "made up".
Dr. Konijnendijk, I think I met you when I was at UCL doing an MA in 2012.
Didn't really have a question in mind, but I thought I'd say "Hi!" Small world.
My son (11) is deeply fascinated by greek (and Roman) mythology. He's an avid reader and way beyond his grade level and I'm quickly running out of material to get him (we started this journey with the percy jackson series just to fit his age/reading level at the time, but recently got him the Iliad and the Odyssey) and I was wondering what you might recommend to start incorporating historically factual material to accompany the fantastical stories. Thanks!
I do a little work on ancient near eastern warfare and some on Roman warfare. I'm wondering if you're aware of any examples in primary texts of what we would now describe as PTSD among soldiers. Secondary literature on that would also be great!
Is there any evidence of those states and kingdoms in game and in the iliad, during the Mycenaean age or it's just Homer fantasy and we just don't have many records about this period and kingdoms?
Is there any historical basis for the events or any individuals who may have inspired the tales?
Did the ancient Greeks have their sword sheath on the left or right?
One of my favorite passages in the Iliad is when Diomedes wounds Aphrodite, and she flees to be comforted by her mother Dione. This of course contradicts the more popular mythology of Hesiod that ascribes Aphrodite’s birth to the sea foam after Ouranos’ castration, not as the daughter of Zeus and some other mother goddess. How did the Greeks reckon with contradictions like these, or were they even contradictions in their eyes?
Heinrich Schliemann is a bit of a controversial figure, what are your thoughts on his contributions to the archaeology of sites like Troy and Mycenae?
Okay, last question from me! Thanks for all your answers!
Boar tusk helmets always seemed a little comical to me. Is there any evidence to suggest they were actually effective?
Is there anything to the story of Achilles and the other major players like Oddyseus, Hector etc. Not the godlike powers or mythology. Is there any historical evidence with these names or names close to them? Or were these legends inspired by actual people in the war that Homer changed the names of to make for a more compelling story. Or is there no record of noteworthy soldiers/generals in the war?
Was there a difference in wealth between the men serving as hoplites vs skirmishers in classical Greece? Would a typical hoplite own land, slaves, both?
What is your favorite little known detail about the Trojan War?
This is more a mythological question, so perhaps it's out of bounds, but I'm curious about Diomedes.
In the Iliad and the surrounding myths, he very much comes across as perhaps the greatest all-round Achaean. Almost as good a fighter as Achilles but without the rage, almost as clever as Odysseus but without the cutthroat tendencies, a wiser king than Agamemnon etc....
And yet he doesn't appear to have much in the way of cultural presence compared to the other heroes. He doesn't get his own (surviving) epic, he doesn't become the protagonist of any great Athenian tragedies to my knowledge, Alexander and the successors don't try and invoke his memory.
What's the deal? Why did he fall from prominence, if he indeed did so?
Who were the Sea People?
So why did the Siege of Troy take 10 years to Conclude?
Were the Greeks just bad at Siege Warfare or were the Trojans thay good in Defense?
In your opinion was Homer a person or profession?
Do any of the characters have stories about them in other works? Not the famous ones like Odysseus and Aeneas, more like Diomedes or Ajax.
Also are there any indication of characters from the Trojan war being based on real people? I know there is a mention of Paris/Alexander in a Hittite clay tablet.
Except the obvious texts and excavations from Troy do we know more? Because I want to know more.
What's your opinion on the List of Ships being a useful fact for explaining the military/ economic power of the time? Like there's no way Athens at the supposed time had 50 ships and was more of a current update on military power.
How would a Greek shield wall or phalanx differ from a Danish/Norse shield wall? What circumstances caused them to have different style? Any intriguing items on the differences on how these shield walls affected a battle?
Many figures in TW Troy have versions of bronze plate armor, would this have actually been a time of bronze plate? Something akin to the high middle age steel but with bronze? Looking at the couple examples of the dendra panoply it doesn't seem outside the realm of possibility.
Do historians like yourselves use the homeric tales for insight into the bronze age collapse and if so what can be concluded ?
What's the consensus among modern historians on Schliemann, his methods, and the authenticity of his discoveries? I recall learning in school the basic "fact" that Schliemann discovered Troy, only to find later that the situation was more complicated. Is his excavation at Hisarlik generally considered to be the historical Troy? How much did his... unorthodox... techniques impact later historians and archaeologists?
Unrelated, but in scholarship is "Troy" or "Ilium" preferred? Why? And what's the etymology of the name "Troy?"
My questions pertains the scale of mobilization.
If you wanted to field an army of 10.000, what size of population can handle this? 50k 100k?
Also, how many supplies would they carry, weeks worth or months?
I suppose part of the charm of war was raiding, so where they supposed to forage their own supplies from the locals?
Fianlly, payment. Were they paid in glory only? Would they get a share of the spoils? would only the princes be rewarded and they in turn had to split their share with their followers?
Would the Greeks have had the resources to build the Trojan horse? If they had been on the beaches of what is now Turkey for ten years, would they have enough wood to build the horse to the magnificence described?
Was the trojan war really fought because of Helen? Or was it more of a casus belli?
I remember watching a Netflix series about the trojan wars and it depicted the greeks demanding tribute and other payments from the Trojans alongside the return of Helen in their demands. Was this authors freedom or is there some merit to it? Going to war over just one woman (sorry ladies, we love you but still) seems kinda dumb
Would soldiers keep memorabilia of their family while they were at war much like we do now? Also was there any mailing system that they could have used to keep in communication with people back home?
Did a stick of dynamite really destroy the ruins of the city?
Are anatolian people today more closely related to the original Trojans or Russian Turks?
Are there any written records from the region that survived or do we still try to get the facts from Homer?
I'll stop now lol
Could you elaborate on the tactics/processes involved in besieging a city and defending a city like Troy? I mean things like siege tactics, siege equipment, logistics, etc. Like, how would a typical siege look like?
In a lot of your replies you discuss the works of Homer as a source however he is a poet from 100s of years later, do you think the siege of Troy was real or mainly a story?
Are the ruins of Troy the real thing? I've been to Turkey as a tourist, and got taken there on a tour. There was a ton of touristy gimmicks, but the ruins we were shown were extremely underwhelming, it just looked like a field with some old bricks in it. Is it truly the site where we think ancient Troy was, or a tourist trap? Or maybe the average tourist is only shown a small piece?
Hi, thank you for the AMA.
In the Hollywood movie "Troy" you see a lot of duels, 1v1 battles to win a war / honor / revenge.
Is that pure fiction or do we have any evidance that such one on one fights happened in the Trojan war/ Greek warfare?
Did the Thracians likely have an influence of popularizing Cavalry over Chariots in Archaic Greeks, or was is more of Anatoliens? Also, how did the Cimmerians impact the Greeks of Asia Minor with their raids and possible overlordship of cities in the early to mid Archaic era?
Do you think that Greek art like the painted kraters or amphoraes changed or were more widely produced after these mythologies emerged?
What kind of defenses would cities have back then? Besides archers and simple siege weapons,
Trenches? Traps?
What was the bloodiest battle
Why Paris has two names? Paris and Alexandros?
Do we know what wepons were used in the trojan war and if so was ther any diferance between the greek wepons and the trojan wepons?
Im wondering, what were some of the largest known war time atrocities committed during this time?
I know there have been tons of great question and answers about the Trojan War and it's historicity on AH, but what about in Ancient Greek times? Would someone listening to Homer (or bards in general) singing about the travails of Achilles and company think that the stories were historically accurate? A sort of historical fiction, based on a real war but with fictional characters inserted into the action? Or something entirely fictitious?
How did this perception change over time? By the time Plato was calling for all the poets to be kicked out of Athens, was the historicity of the Homeric epics perceived differently?
How did the logistics of bronze age work? Were there roads between cities and settlements? Were they populated like modern highways or uninhabited paths passing through all kinds of terrains of nightmare stuff? Was there anything like overnight journey?
Did the Trojan War actually happen? Wikipedia isn't very informational on the topic, and given that the war happened at a time of myth and legend, I can only speculate as to how much of it is factual.
So did it really happen?
When was the rest of the Epic Cycle lost, and why did only the Iliad and Odyssey survive?
Also were the latter two always fundamental texts for Ancient Greeks, or did they gain popularity many years down the lines?
Heinrich Schliemann is very interesting to me. As an archeologist, I’m sure there is a lot of things you can say he did wrong, but but what are some good things we can learn from him?
How have the Illiad and Oddesy been viewed, as fact or fiction, throughout the ages? Did ancient people think the fantastical events (e.g. killing a cyclops) actually happened, or were the poems viewed as primarily fictional literature?
Leaving aside the science fiction elements of the story, a major plot point of Dan Simmons' novels Illium and Olympos was the idea of war-gaming the Trojan war. Has anything like this been attempted in real life? Did we learn anything if so?
I know this is a broad question. If a guy wanted to study more about the Ancient Greek's Warfare would i begin :D
Hoi leuk om een AMA te zien over dit onderwerp.
I really like the greek mythology and all their heroes. Who is your favorite greek hero? What book do you recommend reading about the Trojan war? What makes Greek warfare in that time period so interesting?
Kind of an obvious and very broad question here but how does our modern understanding of the events that unfolded in Hisilark-Troy and the narrative of Homer align?
In a more broad sense, how much of the Illiad do we know is false/true?
What's the oldest historical accurate book (or similar) we have?
As a big amateur fan of Bronze Age Near East history, I've been excited to see that we've been able to learn more and more about the Luwian civilization and culture in recent years; the Luwians seem to have had a very rich history, and I love that we're finally uncovering so much evidence about it.
That being said, my understanding is that the city of Troy was indeed part of the Luwian civilization. I'm curious, then, what significance Troy held for the Luwian civilization, if it held any at all. Was it a political capital? A military stronghold? A major port? Or was it just a frontier city near the Mycenaeans that the rest of the Luwians didn't care too much about?
In that era of warfare, what were the general tactics? I know that the Greek phalanx didn't exist yet, but would they have had a similar fighting style to the Hittites or the Egyptians? Or would their geography change how their tactics work as opposed to those two.
How did armies get all the logistics nailed down? How did they get enough food, men, and equipment to function? Where did they march?
Thank you both for doing this AMA! I’ve enjoyed so many of your fantastic responses on this sub.
My question is: just how terrible was Heinrich Schliemann’s infamous looting “excavation” of the site? Are archeologists, historians and anthropologists today able to glean anything from his discoveries despite the terribly unscientific way in which he went about doing it?
The Trojan horse always seemed so goofy of a trick for it to actually work. Do you think the trojan horse was as an actual 'trojan horse' as it has been recorded or do you have any theories what later generations could of been confused by?
Was there ever evidence that the Greeks used iron/steel for any sort of general use?
How realistic was a siege that lasted 10 years? How did the Trojans have enough food for so long?
What do you reckon to the theory of the horse being a gift to Poseidon for damaging the walls with an earhquake?
What do you really reckon caused the Bronze Age collapse apart from ‘sea people’?
Was the volcanic eruption at Thera too early to have had a major impact on the proceedings? Or could the stories we have, just like Atlantis be an amalgamation of events?
Were Chariots really used as battle taxis by the Mycenaeans as Homer described in the Illiad? Or were they more typical of the kinds used by the Hitittes and Egyptians?
I read Eric H. Cline and he mentions Ajax's tower shield and that such shield designs were from the 16th century BC.
Was Ajax's tower shield really anachronistic for the Iliad? Any ideas how he got incorporated into the Iliad?
Why did cities arise where they did in the ancient world? Why did they rise and fall?
To my limited understanding, cities were either
In which case whether a city was looted and its population enslaved or not the size of the city shouldn't change that drastically and sacking a city (I don't mean enslave and pillage I mean destroying the walls and infrastructure ) wouldn't make that much sense.
This begs the question of why was there such a drastic shift in the population of cities around this period? Why did Troy not simply become a new greek/achean city? I guess this also goes into the whole bronze age collapse thing.
In ancient warfare, what seemed to have a larger impact, weapons superiority, strategy, strong supply lines/rations? And I know it's not your area of expertise, but how would you say the importance of those elements have shifted over time with regards to impact on victory?
Two of my favourite AskHistorians flaired users do an AMA related to my favourite game series and I seem to have missed it! I've enjoyed reading all the questions and answers so far. On the off chance you're still answering, I have a question that I think hasn't been asked on the thread yet.
What do you think of the Total War series in general (and Troy specifically) in creating an interest in history? On the one hand it is of course great that people get interested in history through these games. For me it certainly worked that way and I seem to remember u/Iphikrates saying he spent more hours on Total War: Rome 2 that he wanted to admit. On the other hand, game mechanics, design choices and the sensational or simplified portrayal of certain things might fuel preconceptions that I've seen both you dispel on many occasions. What do you think about this tension?
Keep up the good work!
Where does the consensus of classicists fall on the Iliad vis a vis historicity? My impression is that the subreddit's classicists lean towards entirely or almost entirely a product of archaic Greece, but I know at least Eric H Cline thinks it's an actual garbled cultural memory (i.e. all the warfare is based "Homer's" familiarity with archaic age warfare) of a real Bronze Age war(s).
What do Linear B tablets say about martial matters in Mycenaean Greece? Do they mention infantry and light armed troops? Were they armed by the State? Do we have any clue of the usage of mercenaries?
Do we know for sure if the historical basis of the war involved the Hittite city of Wilusa, and if so what could the conflict have been over and who exactly was involved?
In the game there are mythological creatures you can use one of them being the centaurs. Since this war is being fought in the Bronze age it is my understanding that there was little to no combat fought on horses, the groups rather choosing to fight on chariots. The tip says that small groups had the idea to fight on horse back and rode bareback into battle and they from a distance looked as if the horse and person where combined as one. If this is true is this where the myth of centaurs comes from and If so is there any other easy examples of the origin of mythological creatures being explained.
How did historians take it when Troy was founded and this was no longer a mythological poem?
What do you think about the Troy movie?
Were there areas in the world that had entered the Iron Age before others with a significant time margin?
The Homeric Epics are commonly said not to be sources on the Bronze Age. The government, war, equipment etc is different. Is there any era the epics do refer to and if not where are the various aspects of Greek society in the epics originally from?
What are some of the most common reasons for a hoplite formations cohesion breaking during the Classical Period?
Is there any chance at all that the Romans are related to the Trojans, as in like the Aeneid?
Or is it just something the Romans made up to seem more ancient and prestigious?
This was asked just to the general sight but I thought it was a great question. At this point of the bronze age would your standard foot soldiers be using stone weapons or weapons of an alternative material? For example in the early Iron age richer soldiers would have iron components to armor and weapons and poorer would have this with bronze. So do we see the same dynamic with organized units ranging from bronze to stone (or other cheaper materials) in the era of the seige of Troy?
Did classical Greeks ever name their sons and daughters after the hero's of the illiad? and if they did did it differ from region to region?
Why were glory and fame so important to heroes of the Trojan War when there was no hereditary/clan respect?
Knights, Samurai, work on a hereditary system where if they died their children/other clan members could inherit their title which helped promote "honourable behaviour" however, as seen in the Odyssey this is not the case for Mycenea Greece so was this behavior sustained why were these glory seekers not gradually replaced as they got themselves killed?
What level of masonry are we talking about during this era? Or, more explicitly, what strength can we expect from the supposed Trojan walls?
How often when digging up sites for ancient warfare, do you come across things from the Roman Empire or Middle Ages instead? I imagine it’s not disappointing but it wasn’t what you were looking for! What do you do if such a thing happens?
What are the most distant places the Trojans would have traded with? I imagine there have been coins and other small objects found from other countries.
Schliemann’s atrocious excavations at Hisarlik are a source of frustration. Thinking og all the valuable information and potential finding which were blundered away is maddening.
My question is: have the more recent excavations at the supposed site of Troy yielded any interesting results? Any findings or newly gained information which is or can potentially be interesting?
Thank you for doing this AMA!
What are the accounts like of what Hellen of Troy looked like? I know she must’ve been beautiful but any indication as to general facial features?
Do we know anything about the scale of cities and armies in this time period?
For example would we expect Troy to have a population of 1,000, 10,000 people and so on?
What is something that you might not have anticipated, but surprised you most about Greek warfare?
In Ancient Greece I’ve heard there were sewer systems and I’ve heard they used bathrooms and took hot baths. Is this true?
I'm curious as to how they 'paid' for it. I know this was before money and markets. How did cities 'finance' such a long siege. Was there a concept of private property and ownership or did the powerful 'own' everything and everyone under theM?
Why is the Ancient Greek κ often romanised to c in modern literature? For example Ἀλκιβιάδης is romanised to Alcibiades instead of Alkibiades, Κασσάνδρα is usually romanised to Cassandra instead of Kassandra, Περικλῆς is romanised to Pericles, etc.
Was everyone as stubborn as the AI is?
Is there any concrete evidence as to how Troy was finally defeated? As to the "final," ending event of the war
I've heard the theory that the dark age collapse was partly due to the Trojan War. That the Greek victorious soldiers had become so accustomed to war that they all decided to abandon their fields and live from plunder alone. Any truth to this?
did alliances work the same way as in the Peloponnesian war described by Thucydides? By then the politics already seemed quite complex.
And any information on Athens as a warring state during this time?
The titles and topics of your books sound super interesting! Any option to buy them for less than 120 USD that you feel.comfortable sharing?
Where can I find Kratos's Mom ?? Sorry for my shitt comment and great post😊👍
How large were the armies at this point in time? I've heard really conflicting accounts and the only versions of the history I know have been more concerned with the personal drama.
I'm sure this must have been answered elsewhere, but do we know roughly how many people were involved in the siege? If so how?
And a cheeky follow up, was the conflict considered large scale for the time period?
how did invading armies manage to dismantle large megolithic style stone temples and such of the places they invaded?
How do we classify the remains of Troy? E.g. This wall belongs to Troy I and this one belongs to Troy II?
Was Helen of Troy kidnapped, or did she come with Paris willingly?
What was the nature of the relationship between Achilles and Patroclus?
Was wearing the skin of certain animals believed to imbue the wearer with the traits of said animal? Like a lion or wolf would give strength. And did this apply to any other animal?
I somehow remember from a book I had in high school about the Trojan War, where a Trojan attempted to sneak into the Greek lines at night while wearing a cape made of the skin of a mole, supposedly because it would make him less visible due to others due to how moles had poor eyesight or were blind. A bit flawed logic there, and he did get captured by the Greeks.
Did CA got the city of Troy and the armies, tactics, strategies of the time right? What do you think is the most authentic things CA got in the Total War Troy?
How common was the use of the Labrys in Warfare during this time? I know in the more classical era most tactics revolved around the spear wielding hoplite but what about this early?
After the siege of Troy was it destroyed and abandoned or was it still an important major city in the Greek world that slowly was abandoned and forgotten
If troy has never fall, would there have been no rome? Or would rome have rise anyways. Or the founding of rome by the romulus and remus is a concrete myth?
Is there any evidence of a large horse-like weapon being used to attack the city? The Trojan Horse is pretty significant in popular culture but it could very well be fabrication.
Has there been a change in research in the last decade. Is Wilusa still considered the historical Troy and has the debate over whether it was a large city get decided. The last thing I really read about the city was Dr Korfmanns 2004 article in archeology
Chariots only seem to be a means of transport as heroes choose to disembark instead of fighting each whilst mounted. Considering the Iliad was composed during the Bronze Age period when chariots were very much in vogue especially with the Hittites, who were the neighbors of the Greeks. It also strikes me as absurd since the Mahabharata composed in the same time period mentions chariots extensively and most of the heroes would fight each other whilst mounted. Was the non-usage of chariots a cultural thing or had they outlived their purpose?
We’re the Trojans part of the Hittite empire? If so, why were they not reinforced by a larger Hittite army?
What could have been the real reason for the Trojan war? Certainly not a woman? (Iirc most wars are economically motivated, right?)
Were slingers actually used in numbers/fielded as battalions in the real world. I'm sure a rock slung with aim could do serious damage to an lightly armored man but I feel like its just worse archery. Sure rocks and slings are easy to get but the training to do it accurately seems so much more skill intensive than a bow and arrow, and you still aren't getting any penetrating power against shields or armor, and trying to sling rocks while in a formation seems far worse than arrow volleys. You can train someone to shoot a bow in a massed group in a week or two but slinging seems like a lifetime skill.
What kind of armor would the Achaians have worn during the Trojan War? In pop culture, it is common to show them with Corinthian style helmets but I believe that was hundreds of years later.
In your opinion(s), what is the coolest thing you know about the Trojan War?
I had a question because I was actually quite curious of how true it was, Were the romans actually descendants of the destruction of Troy (the one from this time period, not the like 4 other ones)
Hi, two simple questions!
Do we have any evidence to support the existence of the Trojan War in Greek mythology actually happening? And if so, is there any evidence to suggest the famous Trojan Horse was real?
Thanks!
Three questions:
Do we have any remains from people who supposedly fought in that war?
How drastically did the Greek Pantheon change or evolve from the Mycenaean (bronze age) to the Greeks (classic antiquity)
This might seem like a silly question, but how accurate were Homer and Virgil? Did Achilles really exist? Did the survivors of the Troy who escaped really go on to found the Roman Empire?
so i was wondering about ship size.
i've read a bit about and the sizes i can confirm (for bronze age in general) seem to be about 15 meters for ocean going ships. but how big could these ships realistically be, and how man intensive would they be? obviously warships of the time used a lot of rowers but what about trade ships?
Were the Greek models who were used in sculptures (e.g- Hercules) really that muscular and ripped?
As ancient books get passed down through history, they are often transcribed and copied many times. I've seen several mentions here to Homer having been dated "around 700BC." Given the age of the material, what are the earliest known versions of his works like? What are they written on? How far back do we have copies of his works?
Use of poisonous substances... real or myth?
Hello, I've been told that early Greek warfare sources are only from Homer. Are there any other sources that might have inferences or something else that may harken back to that time from another historian or is it truly Homer we have to go off of (dismissing archaeological evidence)?
Is there a y proof that Achilles and the Myrmidons were not Greeks, buy foreign mercenaries?
The Romans claimed to be descended from Trojan refugees after the fall of Troy (most notably in the Aeneid). How plausible is this claim?
What did greek troops in the time of the trojan war do at night when marching to protect the camp?
Is there any credence to the myth that Aeneas and a few survivors of Troy fled the region and settled in in a Italy, where their descendent eventually created Rome. Are there any remains of villages with Trojan influences in Italy, or anything to suggest that some Trojans were in Italy at the time?
Hi, and thank you so much for that trove of information in all the other users' questions! I listened to an Invisibilia podcast about "legit", a feeling foreign to our western cultures some times ago, but I strongly related that to what I learned in my mythology courses, about hubris. Hubris, from what I understood, is when you cannot control your feelings anymore and go beyond what's humanly acceptable, in a berserk way. Legit seems to be the same, except that it helps you channel the flow of emotions and externalize it, with the help of the tribe, to overcome the bad feelings. Greek mythology and history is full of heroes who went beyond their human condition when confronted to grief and channeled their anger into destruction. It is also full of women who warned men about the consequences of their actions, and then had to suffer at the hands of those same men, or be demonized by them.
I think my question would be how much do you think this vision of the world (warrior men v/s seer women / fixed roles in society) shaped our modern society and all our inequalities, when men were not allowed to grieve properly, in a collective way, and had to live or die, abiding to these standards?
What exactly was in Greek fire?
Why does the word "Rhododendron" sound like a homeric age seige engine?
This might be a little off topic, but I've always wondered about this.
I remember being taught that in-text citations were an important element of writing academic literature, yet I never really notice any MLA or APA style in-text citations in any of the academic books ive read.
I figure that such styles might prove to be too cumbersome and would break up the flow of the book, so I understand why it isn't used. My question is:
"As academic writers, are there any forms of in-text citations that you're required to use when writing in such an elevated academic level, or are citations exclusively left for the Reference pages?"
Can you give us insight into what the warriors ate whilst inside the 'Trojan Horse'?
This has nothing to do with Bronze Age warfare but what is the closest guess to the chemical composition of Greek fire?
