Why isn't the "cessation of miracles at the time of Christ's death" documented in the Talmud discussed more in Christian-Jewish dialogues throughout history?

by ceiltechbladhm

I'm not interested in whether the events in these references actually occurred. I'm dumbfounded as to why these references weren't used in any of the ancient Christian-Jewish dialogues/debates that I can find. Even now, I can't find many people referencing them, and I don't know why.

There were three regularly-occurring miracles documented in the Talmud (Yoma 39b.5-6) that stopped 40 years prior to the destruction of the second temple (70 AD), which would have been right when Jesus died.

  • A thread, which changed from a crimson color to white on the Day of Atonement if the sacrafice was acceptable, stopped changing.
  • On the Day of Atonement, when lots were cast (one lot for the Lord and one for the scapegoat), the lot for the Lord always came up in the left hand (an auspicious sign)
  • The western light went out on its own in an uncanny manner
  • Additionally, the gates of the temple started opening of their own accord (which was taken as an ominous sign)
  • Direct link to the Talmud: https://www.sefaria.org/Yoma.39b.5?lang=bi&with=all&lang2=en
  • Additional location where the whitening of the scarlet thread was expected: https://www.sefaria.org/Mishnah_Yoma.6.8?lang=bi&with=all&lang2=en

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What I can't understand is why these references would have been passed up by so many historians throughout history. It seems like a "smoking gun" that would have been used repeatedly. I'm missing something here, and since this isn't my area of expertise, I would love to know from an actual historian why these seem to have been ignored.

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Modern references:

I've found one modern scholar who discusses them (the above bullet points are taken from his article), but he doesn't give an explanation as to why they weren't discussed previously. He was kind enough to respond to an email inquiring about this; his article was from 15 years ago, and he doesn't recall enough about the subject to answer. Also, no paper that cites this work discusses these references.

https://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/48/48-2/48-2-pp301-316_JETS.pdf

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Other old sources that don't mention this at all (I relied on the search functions provided):

Justin Martyr in his Dialog with Typho discusses scapegoats, but doesn't reference this passage (thought I don't know that he references the Talmud at all in this) https://d2y1pz2y630308.cloudfront.net/15471/documents/2016/10/St.%20Justin%20Martyr-Dialogue%20with%20Trypho.pdf

Judaism on tiral: Jewish-Christian disputations in the Middle Ages: https://archive.org/details/judaismontrialje00macc/page/209/mode/2up

The Dialogues of Athanasius and Zacchaeus and of Timothy and Aquila: https://archive.org/details/dialoguesofathan00cony/page/n37/mode/2up?q=temple

Jewish-Christian Dialogues on Scripture in Late Antiquity:https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/jewishchristian-dialogues-on-scripture-in-late-antiquity/C66901ABCD5700A096877599CD04DD13/listing

hannahstohelit

Hey there,

Just to let you know, your question is fine, and we're letting it stand. However, you should be aware that questions framed as 'Why didn't X do Y' relatively often don't get an answer that meets our standards (in our experience as moderators). There are a few reasons for this. Firstly, it often can be difficult to prove the counterfactual: historians know much more about what happened than what might have happened. Secondly, 'why didn't X do Y' questions are sometimes phrased in an ahistorical way. It's worth remembering that people in the past couldn't see into the future, and they generally didn't have all the information we now have about their situations; things that look obvious now didn't necessarily look that way at the time.

If you end up not getting a response after a day or two, consider asking a new question focusing instead on why what happened did happen (rather than why what didn't happen didn't happen) - this kind of question is more likely to get a response in our experience. Hope this helps!