Friday Free-for-All | April 09, 2021

by AutoModerator

Previously

Today:

You know the drill: this is the thread for all your history-related outpourings that are not necessarily questions. Minor questions that you feel don't need or merit their own threads are welcome too. Discovered a great new book, documentary, article or blog? Has your Ph.D. application been successful? Have you made an archaeological discovery in your back yard? Did you find an anecdote about the Doge of Venice telling a joke to Michel Foucault? Tell us all about it.

As usual, moderation in this thread will be relatively non-existent -- jokes, anecdotes and light-hearted banter are welcome.

Kelpie-Cat

I did an illustration of a teenage girl in the Chachapoya city of Kuélap 1000 years ago!

toldinstone

Hello all-

I recently posted a new video about how the Greeks and Romans built their largest temples. If nothing else, it has some fun footage from the time I scrambled through ruins of the colossal Temple of Zeus at Selinunte in Sicily.

conjyak

Since this is a free-for-all, I'm gonna go for it here, because I enjoy /r/AskHistorians content tremendously.

In the Does "Why Nations Fail" contradict "Guns, Germs and Steel" thread, as one would expect in a history sub, most answers are highly critical of GGS. I've actually read GGS and I've probably read most of the GGS critiques on places like Reddit, and I will say that historians and anthropologists are right about GGS getting many details about history and anthropology wrong. So, eviscerate it and extract out whatever is wrong from the contents of GGS.

But I think GGS still has something that remains to its argument even after that. When the critics try to roll their arguments up to discredit GGS's main thesis, I think they are not being fair. GGS's main thesis is about Eurasia and continental axes, not local histories, not even at the subcontinent level. So in the thread, I made a point that OP's question, which used examples about North and South Korea and intra-African geography, was not applying GGS correctly. I made comments in a few locations in the thread, all of them non-top-level comments and all of them relevant to whom I was replying to, making this point. But my comments were removed and I was shadowbanned. To be fair, the moderation didn't remove every single comment that was against the tide - there were 2 other commenters who were questioning the points that were criticizing GGS. But I suppose mine was the most "annoying" to deal with because I was making a sweeping point about GGS and OP's question whereas the other two were asking about specific points that could be specifically answered.

People can judge for themselves because OP asked the same question in /r/AskHistorians and /r/AskEconomics and you can find my comments in the /r/AskEconomics thread unremoved where I state my points. Here is the AskHistorians thread and here is the AskEconomics thread.

The cherry on top for me is that OP's question was about GGS and Acemoglu's Why Nations Fail and someone in AskEconomics directly cited text by Acemoglu that answered OP's question completely head on, straight from the horse's mouth; that's Acemoglu himself talking about Diamond's theories. That citing doesn't exist in the /r/AskHistorians thread. Meanwhile, you have a really long-winded answer involving chaos theory and strange attractors, which gets called out by someone who actually knows something about soil science (i.e. geography/earth science, which a lot of GGS is about). The reply/replies to that is basically "Yeah, but other stuff," which gets more upvotes than the call-out. The call-out was making a basic point, which is: "Soil matters." Is "soil matters" not a good enough point for readers? (I say all this out of love and respect for /r/AskHistorians.)

When people talk about GGS, even people who like GGS, they tend to use the biggest example that is used in the book, which is the European invasion of the Americas. However, I disagree with that choice of example. The final thesis of GGS (at its most parsimonious and IMO defensible) is that ceteris paribus, continental axes make a Eurasian society (not a European one) dominating a non-Eurasian society more likely than the other way around should such societies ever meet and end up in conflict. And obviously, this should say nothing about North and South Korea or regions within Africa (what OP's question asked about). GGS is not about societies and how people live in societies, it's about continents and how societies live on those continents (or rather, continental axes and how societies live on those continental axes).

And that's why Diamond emphasizes something more macro than human agency, because he's trying to answer his Papua New Guinean colleague's question that can be boiled down to: "Why does your society dominate ours? Why aren't we the ones dominating you?" I use the word "dominate" because it is a more abstract term than something like "conquer", IIRC is the term that Diamond tends to use as well, and IMO its abstractness or flexibility works best. GGS is not about whether a society can or can't develop and flourish in a vertically-aligned continent or different soil conditions. It's about which society is more likely to dominate another if two societies end up in conflict or competition. And dominate doesn't have to be military. It can be cultural, political, etc. whatever that people can agree on is a form of domination between societies.

GGS (at its most parsimonious) fails when it talks about anything on the subcontinental scale or smaller. So it fails when it even talks about Europe vs China - those scales are too micro for GGS. I'm not sure how much Diamond himself even realizes that this is a pitfall because he does let himself talk about things on that sort of micro scale. But I will say that GGS is over 400 pages and in pages 1-401, he does not make any direct Europe vs China comparisons. It's only in the epilogue of the book between pages 409 and 417 that he riffs on Europe vs China (and fails because GGS is indefensible when it comes to that micro scale). But in the main body of the text, pages 1-401, it's about Eurasia vs non-Eurasia. GGS is overwhelmingly not about Europe vs non-Europe, it's about Eurasia vs non-Eurasia.

Just to show that I'm not some crazy pseudo-history believer lol, I've made comments in /r/AskHistorians before that even got positive mentions by a mod in the Sunday Digest (here, here). And I've also made comments in the past where the entire comment chain that my comment was in got deleted by a mod later and I personally agreed with that deletion because the discussion there tended to be unsourced and not really academically authoritative enough.

If you're still up for reading about GGS stuff, I implore people to read the rebuttals that people have made against the criticisms of GGS. IMHO, the annoying (to historians and anthropologists) resilience(?) of GGS among laymen is partially because historians and anthropologists have created an echochamber of anti-GGS among themselves. I understand that because GGS makes predictions about history, it's inherently unpalatable to historians and could even legitimately be labeled as non-history if the discipline of history is best when it does not make predictions. We know GGS talks a lot about geography, biology, and agriculture. And I feel like it's almost a pattern where a historian's criticism of GGS (which usually gets only praise in a history subreddit) gets called out by a specialist in one of the above three disciplines, which makes sense to me. Historians and anthropologists should feel a bit out of their comfort zone when criticizing GGS because GGS deals in so much that is not history! Because predictions are not history and neither are the abovementioned three disciplines, which are heavily earth science and biology. (Economics is regularly called upon to try to make predictions, which is probably why defending GGS in /r/AskEconomics isn't an underdog move there.) I think the echochamber, for a while already, has reached too much of a level that it's missing what GGS can still say, and my being shadowbanned was the last straw that has made me decide to write this all out here.

mimicofmodes

I just wanted to note that I have a new Victorian sewing pattern in my Etsy shop! It's a lovely bodice dating to the early 1870s.

laineh90

Does anyone have questions for a ww2 paratrooper?? Seeing my grandpa and was goin to an AMA with him, figured I would give others the chance to participate. He was 11th division Airborne paratrooper in Pacific Asia- Japan, Philippines, New Guinea

opiate_lifer

I have read quite a bit of WW2 history and even biographies of Hitler and the Nazi party ideology etc but I have a question I have never seen seriously addressed.

Why did no one ever notice the Aryan ubermensch archetype applied to NONE of the higher Nazi leadership including Hitler himself? And honestly most of the Caucasian population of Germany didn't fit this silly archetype either.

You even see this in Soviet era propaganda and artwork, it will feature blonde blue eyed body builders while your average Russian doesn't look anything like that. Its just weird, especially since Russia fought an existential war against an enemy that considered slavs sub human, only to almost turn around and adopt their imagery and mythos.

subredditsummarybot

Your Weekly /r/askhistorians Recap

Friday, April 02 - Thursday, April 08

###Top 10 Posts

score comments title & link
7,106 348 comments [April Fools] [Review] THIS MOVIE "300" IS A VICIOUS SLANDER AGAINST SPARTA AND THIS MEANS WAR
5,480 167 comments Rudy Giuliani is often referred to as having completely broken the mob when he served as the US Attorney for SDNY. How much of the Mafia’s decline in the US, or even just NYC, since its heyday can actually be attributed to him personally?
3,814 123 comments I am a random Praetorian Guard in 41 CE. How much notice do I have that we are about to assassinate Emperor Caligula and replace him with Claudius?
3,513 51 comments [Mass Communication] How did so many seemingly insignificant events get into the newspaper in the early 1900`s?
3,188 8 comments Following the abolition of the Japanese nobility in 1947, to what degree and how quickly did they integrate into larger Japanese society, as opposed to continuing as a de facto caste even if lacking official sanction?
3,096 224 comments Does "Why Nations Fail" contradict "Guns, Germs and Steel" ?
2,822 46 comments Why/when did Canadian rural voters go from regularly voting left wing (eg. Tommy Douglas’ governments in Saskatchewan) to now regularly voting right wing?
2,611 132 comments I'm a wealthy American early adopter of TV in the 1940s. What's on?
2,578 48 comments How do historians know who is depicted in identified classical sculptures?
2,399 74 comments What happened to the aristrocratic families of Rome?

 

###Top 10 Comments

score comment
4,290 /u/HomeAliveIn45 replies to Rudy Giuliani is often referred to as having completely broken the mob when he served as the US Attorney for SDNY. How much of the Mafia’s decline in the US, or even just NYC, since its heyday can actually be attributed to him personally?
2,509 /u/jbdyer replies to I'm a wealthy American early adopter of TV in the 1940s. What's on?
2,205 /u/toldinstone replies to I am a random Praetorian Guard in 41 CE. How much notice do I have that we are about to assassinate Emperor Caligula and replace him with Claudius?
1,279 /u/sunagainstgold replies to It's the European middle ages, and I'm traveling from England to Rome or Jerusalem for a pilgrimage. What's border security like, as I cross (presumably) multiple international borders along the way? Do I need a passport or some equivalent?
1,235 /u/PoetryStud replies to A major method of advancement in many RPGs is loot from slain foes. Would a medieval foot soldier or levied peasant have been able to keep or use any weapons he might loot if he happened to manage to kill a knight or man-at-arms? Did any ordinary soldiers get rich from looted gear?
1,222 /u/GrunkleCoffee replies to Does "Why Nations Fail" contradict "Guns, Germs and Steel" ?
1,104 /u/Bodark43 replies to Why do clowns look the way they do?
1,092 /u/ParkSungJun replies to Does "Why Nations Fail" contradict "Guns, Germs and Steel" ?
939 /u/spader1 replies to [Review] THIS MOVIE "300" IS A VICIOUS SLANDER AGAINST SPARTA AND THIS MEANS WAR
928 /u/DanKensington replies to [Review] THIS MOVIE "300" IS A VICIOUS SLANDER AGAINST SPARTA AND THIS MEANS WAR

 

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edrt_

Quick question that popped up between friends today. How long did the Roman Empire control France?

Jan_House

I'm somewhat curious about Rhodesia from the UDI period (1965) until about 1979. Are there any books about what life was like during that time?

Jan_House

I've heard of the Serbian Chetniks and was wondering about good resources on them. Are there any books or anything to consider regarding this subject?