AMA: DEAD FAMOUS - The Origins of Celebrity Culture, with Greg Jenner

by Greg_Jenner

Hi! I'm Greg Jenner, I'm a British public historian and what makes me a little different is that I use humour and pop culture as a tool in my work. Mostly, I'm interested in social and cultural history, but I do a bit of everything in my various jobs. As a broadcaster I host the BBC comedy podcast You're Dead To Me, the BBC children's podcast Homeschool History, and the BBC Radio 4 series Past Forward: A Century of Sound. In TV & film, I am the Historical Consultant (and one of the writers) on all 9 series of the Emmy & BAFTA-winning BBC kids' comedy show Horrible Histories, as well as the spin-off HH movie. I've also recently advised on a new children's animated comedy for YouTube. In terms of publishing, I'm the author of four books (the latter is a new children's book, out in November).

My latest book for adults is called Ask A Historian (my publisher's idea! I apologise unreservedly to the subreddit for the name similarity...), but my second book was just released in the USA last week in paperback, and is called Dead Famous: An Unexpected History of Celebrity, From Bronze Age To Silver Screen. It explores the origins of celebrity culture between 1700-1950, and - while it's hopefully entertaining to read - it was the hardest thing I ever did! It took me 4 years of full-time work to write it, and I ended up with 1.4 million words of notes. In case you're interested, I've posted the full bibliography on my website - it's a bit messy, sorry, but I've tried to pick out certain recommended reads in different thematic areas https://www.gregjenner.com/dead-famous-full-references-bibliography/

So, if you want to ask me about the history of fame and celebrity, I'd be delighted to try and field your question as best I can. A quick caveat, though: this is a surprisingly massive subject, and I'm 100% sure you will be able to fire questions at me that I cannot answer. I wrote about 125 different celebrities in the book, but there are literally thousands of case studies I could have chosen from. Also, I've written half a million words on other subjects since doing this book, so I might need a bit of time to go through my old notes and remind myself of the primary and secondary sources when answering your questions! So, please be patient with me, but I'll be online from 12pm until 6pm GMT, and then will check back in after 10pm GMT if you have anything else to ask.

So, without much further ado, thanks very much for welcoming me to your community -- please AMA!

EDIT!! Hello, I've had a lovely day chatting to you all. In fact, I forgot have lunch and have been surviving on biscuits since 4pm... anyway, you've very kindly fired more questions at me than I can field in one sitting, so I'm now going to spend some time with my family and then do some exercise (I've sat still all day!) and then I'll check back in for another couple of hours from 10pm onwards, I reckon. Thanks very much!

EDIT AGAIN: Thanks very much to you all for your brilliant questions! I tried to get to as many as possible, but it's now midnight and I need to go and prepare for a radio interview I'm doing in the morning. If you enjoyed my AMA session, I'd love you to check out the book that inspired it - Dead Famous: An Unexpected History of Celebrity, From Bronze Age To Silver Screen. I think it's pretty good? It got lots of nice reviews from newspapers and the audiobook was nominated for the GoodReads prize*.* Of course my other books Ask A Historian and A Million Years In A Day are also hopefully a fun read*.* I'm new to Reddit, and will pop in more often, but if you want to chat with me more regularly I'm obsessed with Twitter. You can find me there any time, probably. Thanks very much, and take care! Best wishes, Greg Jenner

Abrytan

Hi Greg, thanks for doing this AMA! Does Dead Famous cover celebrity interaction with the public? In the modern day we have meet and greets and instagram stories, but would Roman gladiators be mobbed outside the Coliseum Doors (gateways?), would Arthur Conan Doyle send pictures of his lunch in to The Times?

Second question if I can - were there any surprises you found when researching the answers for Ask A Historian? Did you have any misconceptions of your own that were challenged by your research?

rcbsas11

Hi Greg! Big fan :) my question is what is the origin of autographs? Were autograph collectors around back in Shakespearean times or was it more recent? Did people always collect or record their experiences with celebrities the way we do now with selfies?

NiccoloBMachiavelli

Hi Greg! Huge fan of You're Dead to Me. Any plans to continue for another season? And pls bring back Prof Michael Scott!

SarahAGilbert

Thanks for doing this AMA Greg! Public history (and doing it well!) is the the overarching goal r/AskHistorians and many of the experts who contribute here. As someone who's a public historian by career, I'd love to learn more about what public history means to you, and why you think it's important.

You also engage in public history across a variety of media (podcasts, tv, Twitter, books, etc.). Do you find there are advantages/disadvantages reaching the public across these various modes?

slaydawgjim

As I was reading this I thought to myself, 'huh, that approach to History sounds like Horrible Histories.'

I grew up reading the magazine's followed by watching the show and it genuinely inspired me to the point where I'm now studying history at university. I have no question just a huge thank you for your work with HH, it was a godsend for any child who actually craved knowledge after school from CBBC rather than gunge fights and Tracy Beaker.

minisaxophone

Hi Greg!

Delighted your doing this AMA, I’m a big fan of all your work!

When reading Dead Famous, I couldn’t help but notice how much celebrity culture in the 18th century focused on the theatre. Why do you think this is where the bulk of celebrities come from in that era?

Secondly, are there any topics you would love to cover on You’re Dead to Me but haven’t been able to because of a lack of experts in the UK?

Lastly, I know that WW2/the Tudors are overdone in the UK, but are there any adjacent topics to these that you would want to cover?

Thanks again, massive fan! Hopefully able to add more of your books to my collection :)

mikedash

One of the stories you worked on for Horrible Histories came up here at AH a while ago – it was the suggestion that Henry VIII was so fearful he had himself bricked up in his bedchamber every night, with each fresh wall demolished in the morning when he rose.

We got asked if this story was true, which it isn't – and in investigating it, I came across your comments on a Twitter thread in which you said: "We are well aware many facts are possibly myths but until they are disproved they remain usable on a comedy show."

At the time I was quite critical of you for saying this:

I suppose a TV show is free to set its own rules in this regard, and though I find it regrettable that such a popular series plays so fast and loose with the facts, I can at least see some spin off benefit in the form of more kids finding history more fascinating.

But I find it unfortunate, in fact unforgivable, that anyone who calls himself an historian could take such a cavalier approach to evidence and sources. After all, if HH requires that someone "disprove the myth" in order that some check be placed on its content, that's something its "historical consultant" ought to be responsible for, and could quite easily have done. Clearly he didn't feel it necessary to try.

...The bottom line here is that I was able to compile my response from my desk, in my lunch break, using resources that are easily accessible online - so there's really no excuse for HH not to make an effort to look into stories it knows are dubious. I can only imagine they don't because they don't want to rule out stuff they think would make good TV. But however entertaining, this is also the stuff that sticks, and it has an impact on perceptions more generally.

In this case, if kids are being told Henry was frightened of being killed in his bed, that affects how they will think about him as a ruler, and think about how dangerous it was to be a king in Tudor England – all in ways that won't be helpful if they come to study the period at A level or at university. So it's not just a harmless bit of fun.

Reading back, I put my views too harshly, but I do stand by the sentiment, at least. Was I being way too po-faced?

Heuromnemon

What are the historical circumstances that need to coincide to produce celebrity? Has the phenomenon happened independently in different cultures?

(I really enjoyed Dead Famous, but it's been a while since I read it so I'm sorry if you answered either question in the book)

Georgy_K_Zhukov

A) I listened to the audiobook a few weeks back to prepare for the AMA and just wanted to say that you did an excellent job narrating. I'm always thrilled when the author takes up the mantle for the narration, as they always bring a certain enthusiasm to it that no third-party can match, and you didn't disappoint.

B) I loved the book overall, but do need to register a very serious complaint, specifically about deciding to use the phrase "whiter than Donald Trump’s untanned buttocks". What the fuck!? Why would you put that image into anyone's head you monster!?!?

C) As for my actual question, it is a little broader than the book and more about you and public history, and actually more inspired by Horrible Histories. One of the things that strikes me about the show, which I've been watching recently (I'd devoured the books as a kid, but the show was a bit late for me to watch in the formative years) is how well you hit the balance point between simplification for the intended audience but not dumbing it down, as there are absolutely point where I think to myself "Well, it was a little more nuanced than that" but I'm hard pressed to think of many cases where that wasn't paired with the thought that it is nevertheless done about right for the actual intended audience's age range. It isn't what I'd tell my parents to watch to learn history, but I've already been telling them it is a must watch for my nieces! So what this big lead up is to say, when working on popular media that is intended to reach a broad audience, where do you see the balance point between simplifying and complexity? I'd especially be interested in your thoughts on how you approach it when media intended for younger audiences, where the exigencies definitely mean pressure to lean towards the former?

difficultybubble

Who became a celebrity for the strangest reason either intentionally or accidentally , in your view ? I haven’t read your book yet sorry if it’s answered in there… Now that I know about it, I’m planning to read it!

SepehrNS

Hello Greg! Thank you for doing this AMA. Really interesting topic.

In your area of study, did people have a crush on celebrities? (Like how thousands of people have a crush on the members of BTS these days) If so, what was having a crush on a celebrity like back then? Do we have any descriptions?

JKrolling8

Hey Greg! Were there paparazzi (or the equivalent) back in the 1700’s and if so, what were they like? Did the press and celebrity have a strenuous relationship and gasp were there tabloids?? Thanks so much!

hannahstohelit

Thank you so much for doing this AMA! I have a few questions:

  1. To what extent did you find politicians to be part of vs separate from celebrity culture in the areas you studied? I noticed that in your recommended reading you included biographies of George Washington, for example.

  2. Random question but I noticed that you have a book about Henry Ward Beecher in your bibliography whose title calls him "the most famous man in America," which reminded me that I just recently read a Sherlock Holmes story (I think it was The Cardboard Box?) in which Holmes and Watson had a picture of Henry Ward Beecher on their wall in the 1880s or so. What kind of celebrity was he in the UK?

  3. Back when I ran the Tuesday Trivia feature here (it's now in the hands of a much more capable bot) I did one on celebrities and, as someone with an interest in Jewish history, I wrote about Yossele Rosenblatt, a 19/20th century cantor who became famous on the world stage and even appeared in the first "talkie." Part of what's so interesting about him is how thoroughly he separated from "celebrity culture" as a religious Jew and how he made his celebrity on his own terms, taking advantage of it when needed yet separating himself from its implications when it made him uncomfortable.
    Do you have any interesting examples of celebrities, especially as the concept of celebrity was first gelling, who consciously removed themselves from celebrity culture whether due to personal interest, a lack of connection with the dominant culture, etc? Did their celebrity survive this attempt?

DogfishDave

Hello Greg, thanks for doing this AMA!

Before the advent of photography, how easy would it be for me to pretend to be a celebrated individual, perhaps to gain credit, favour or service? Are there notable cases of celebrities being so imitated?

buttered-teacake

Hi Greg! Thanks for doing this AMA. Fairly recent finder of You're Dead To Me and I'm hoovering them up on my commute so thank you for that too.

Dead Famous is on my reading list so apologies if it answers this, but in your research did you get the impression that celebrities in the 18th/19th centuries would be national celebrities, or were they more localised? E.g. London-centric? I'm from a small coastal town on the Yorkshire coast and I've always wondered how far talk of Byron or images of Covent Garden theatre "beauties" would have really travelled. Would it reach us country plebs? 😆

The local historical "celebrity" stories that are still known here tend to relate to seafaring or rescue stories, religious stories or people involved in the building of the town, as I imagine is the case in many places. I wonder what would really reach the average inhabitant of smaller places from cities or bigger towns further afield.

tutto_cenere

Thank you for doing an ama! In the 18th century, the time of absolutism, a lot of cultural and societal life was mediated through the courts of monarchs and their associates. At the same time, there were certainly people who became famous for more organic reasons, like certain authors, or medical phenomena like Franz Mesmer. Was there some rivalry between these different paths to fame? The people we still hear about, like the great opera composers, certainly are more often from the court sphere. But maybe that's just a matter of documentation and record keeping, not of popularity.

Alternatively, the monarchs themselves could be considered a celebrity, among other things. Is this something you discuss in the book?

Homelessbadgerking

Hello Greg, I'm a big fan of "you're dead to me", it's so informative and entertaining! Historically, did the appeal of the celebrity transcend socioeconomic boundaries or was interest in celebrity figures more ubiquitous in certain classes than others?

ilneigeausoleil

If influencers on Instagram promote things like diet pills or makeup lines, what were the old-timey equivalents? And when did we get the first of these "celebrity endorsements"?

dratsaab

Hello Greg,

I loved reading a Million Years In a Day - thank you.

As you have said, the notion of 'celebrity' is a vague concept with different levels of interpretation. Nowadays, there are a few people who could be defined as a 'global celebrity' - someone recognisable to a substantial percentage of the world's population. Mario, for example. Or maybe Obama or Elvis.

Within the time periods of 1700 to 1950, how close do we get to this idea of an international celebrity with worldwide fame? If so, how does this fame spread? How far would fame reach?

mcrorigan

Hi Greg!

I'm interested in how your own experience of celebrity has influenced your work in this area. I appreciate that you might not consider yourself to tick all the boxes in the five-point checklist you mentioned elsewhere, but you've become more and more well-known in the years since you started the book.

Has it changed how you view the historical celebrities you study? Or has it changed how you view the concept of 'celebrity' in general?

Thanks for all the great work you do!

asprinklingofsugar

Hello, I recently finished reading dead famous and I just wanted to say I really enjoyed it! Planning to read ask a historian too but I have a few more books on my to read list I need to get through first.

Were there any celebrities or events you wished you could have put in the book but either had to cut, or chose not to include? And out of all the celebrities you researched is there one you were particularly fascinated by and/or is your favourite?

Glad to hear the podcast will be returning in June - it’s my favourite history podcast so I’m looking forwards to it! Is there any particular historian, comedian or topic you’ve wanted to use on the podcast for a while but haven’t yet?

Also are there any other books or resources that cover the topic of historical celebrity that you would particularly recommend for further reading? I know there is a bibliography in the book so feel free to tell me to just check that! And I’ve just realised that’s quite a few questions so just choose your favourite one to answer

SimonScalary

Hey Greg, thanks for doing this AMA. Did the celebrities in the 19th century have the same problems that celebrities have today? Were they also unable to go shopping and do other things like a normal person?

Cerydwen

Hi Greg, I'm a big fan of your approach to history communication as well as HH and You're Dead to Me. My celebrity question(s) is about celebrities as trend setters. It's common to see the general population following royals in terms of fashion and habits. How common was this for other types of celebrity? Would this be limited to the upper / middle classes or would it be a nationwide trend? Is this a western phenomenon or is it global?

danstebar

Hi Greg, thanks for doing this I’m a big fan of You’re Dead to Me and I’ll definitely check out your books now!

How do you think the desire for fame has changed over the years? Is there evidence of people being driven by the desire to be famous seemingly not caring about how that fame came about? What’s the funniest story you know of someone doing something desperate for fame?

ArsenicAndJoy

Thanks for doing this AMA—I’ll definitely check out your book!

My question is about gossip columns/tabloids. When did our modern tabloid press start to take shape, and how did the nature of celebrity change after celebs knew their every move could be documented and any mistake exploited? Thanks!

orange-basilikum

Why isn’t there a german version of the audiobooks? :( Edit: I’ll listen to the english versions anyway, but I would have loved to listen to them in german, that’s all. Thanks for your ama!

LizardPeacock

Hi Greg, I am such an admirer of your work in the public history realm. As someone who has spent a lot of time digging through all the ‘miscellaneous’ boxes of the archives, what, if any, is your favorite bit that you’ve come across that would’ve resulted in too much of a tangent to justify inclusion in Dead Famous?

I also want to add that my outside field for my PhD comprehensive exams was late-seventeenth and early-eighteenth century English literature. Keeping an eye toward changing modes of professional writers, publicness, and celebrity was quite helpful when reading Behn’s plays, for example. You have my thanks!

Reditet

Hi Greg! I loved "You're dead to me", particularly the older episode about Justinian and Theodora.

So, the question: How did celebrity look like in the Roman Empire/Byzantium? Who, besides the Emperor, was "famous" and known by the general inhabitants of the Empires?

dustinporta

As a humor writer do you know what's going to be funny when you're outlining an article? Or do you just have the facts in your outline and the humor comes out when you're putting it to words?

Any good tips for how nonfiction should be structured?

LaceBird360

Thank you for the AMA! My question is: when did science start to study the psychology of fans and celebrities? What conclusions did/do they come to?

kjvp

Hello! I'm curious if there has always been a defined culture of celebrities leaking info to the press, in general but also specifically via a formal system where "a source close to" the celebrity (AKA their manager, PR person, etc.) shares a private detail with a media outlet or gossip column specifically to "control the narrative" about their client, or to get attention for a celeb whose star may be waning. Do we have records of this further back in history? And is there any way to know how personally involved the average celebrity would be in the scheming during a particular time period?

Thank you for doing this AMA — it's a really interesting topic I had somehow not delved too deeply into before!

Nuppusaurus

Is your surname a coincidence in what comes to researching celebrities?

Phranquelyhnne

Greg! My daughter loved homeschool history. Especially your Cleopatra episode.

My question is a bit selfish. Will there ever be any more episodes of homeschool history? I know you planned it as a pandemic thing, but seriously. My 10 year old loved it. It got her excited about history.

So, please? Pretty please? Lol

alpha__papa

Hi Greg, your homeschool history podcasts have turned my daughter 7 into a massive history fan, any plans to do any more podcasts in this series?

SynthD

Was there a significant difference between people in a certain sector, say doctor, who were famous for a) genuine work, eg Edward Jenner versus b) their nobility/background, ie someone who passed the exams but never worked as a doctor due to family money? Did nobility bring people up to the same reputation as those truely skilled in a skill-based field?

NomNomDePlume

I've heard that the "gating-off" of celebrity life from the public was a consequence of the murder of John Lennon. Is there truth to that?

NecrosisIncognito

Hi Greg, not a question but I’d just like to express my gratitude to you for your podcast “You’re dead to me”. It’s brought me a lot of entertainment (and knowledge!) on long road trips.

Funk5oulBrother

Hi Greg! Massive fan of You’re Dead to Me, it’s such a great format and very funny. Cannot wait for new episodes as it’s been too long!

I loved the episode on Norse Literature, would you be interested in doing episodes on English/Welsh/Irish/Scottish folk stories and their origins?

Flaneur_WithA_Turtle

Assuming that most 1700s celebrities are aristocrats, has anyone attempted to expose the private lives/odious acts of celebrities for political gain, if the public perception of them is important to them?

someterriblethrills

Did the developing concept of privacy impact celebrity culture, or vice versa? Thanks for doing an AMA!

worotan

what makes me a little different is that I use humour and pop culture as a tool in my work.

Do you really think that makes you different? That has been the main approach to history and outreach education generally since Blair made public engagement a central part of the weighting for university research funding in the mid 00s. We haven’t been able to move for pop culture being used to explain research ever since!

InNeedOfGoats

How did celebrities deal with stalkers before social media? Did people of the 18th and 19th centuries feel like they knew their celebrities like users on social media think they do today?

kjvp

Who is the most famous person (in their time) from the past that most people won't have heard of today? Why is that so?

hidama

It’s the start of the Belle Époque. What 5 things do I need to do to become an instant celebrity?

Brief_Arugula

Hi Greg! Love You’re Dead to Me, and I see so many people on here who I’m sure would be great on it! How do you pick a topic to cover, and how do you make sure you’re finding the best people (academics and comedians!) for a topic?

Tatem1961

In your research on celebrities did you find any common threads between those who kept their wealth to pass on to multiple generations and those who spent it all within their lifetimes?

WingedSorcerer

Hi Greg! I'm currently about half way through 'Dead Famous', massive fan of the podcast too so really glad to hear the new series is underway.

Are there plans to talk about any celebrity-style topics in upcoming episodes? Or particular historical celebrities? The Lord Byron episode was outstanding, and really funny!

Previous-Unit-6212

You gave a couple of great examples of (war) leaders whose looks/style/sexiness had a significant impact on their success or otherwise - I'm thinking of Garibaldi and Julius Caesar with his red shoes. Are there any examples you can think of where someone's comedic talent had a similar impact? I am thinking of Zelenskiy. He is clearly a hell of a lot more than just funny, but I don't think the funny is insignificant or trivial either. Whaddaya reckon? I love your work BTW. Easy to read/listen means hard to write and it keeps getting better. Thank you!

jhagerman7

No comment on this topic, but I love “You’re Dead to Me.” Keep it up!

WellIlikeme

When did being populat but not powertul begin to make people money? Like, you always hear abouy historically actors being famous but still poor. When did being famous become a commercial industry? Was it Hollywooc, or did it happen before that?

What about the phenomenon of being "discovred"? Is that a recent way to get famous?

Finally what's the best historical "sex tape(stry?)"

Bischoffshof

Hi Greg,

No question but wanted to say really appreciate “You’re Dead to Me.” I believe you were on one of my favorite podcasts either Fighting Cock or Extra Inch and I found it after that and have added it to my listens.

In any case thanks again and COYS