Sunday Digest | Interesting & Overlooked Posts | September 12, 2021

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Welcome to this week's instalment of /r/AskHistorians' Sunday Digest (formerly the Day of Reflection). Nobody can read all the questions and answers that are posted here, so in this thread we invite you to share anything you'd like to highlight from the last week - an interesting discussion, an informative answer, an insightful question that was overlooked, or anything else.

2 Answers 2021-09-12

It is said that the Tate-Labiance murders effectively "sounded the death knell" of the '60s counterculture. What does this mean? How did this event change the way America perceived itself during this time?

1 Answers 2021-09-12

The Venetians almost destroyed the Parthenon in 1687 fighting the Ottomans. Was this an accident or is there evidence that they knew what they were doing - meaning they were aware of the ammunition held in it - and still proceeded with their plan?

The Venetians destroyed significantly the building, particularly the frieze which collapsed. I read somewhere that the Ottomans thought they would not dare do it given the significance of this monument. If the Venetians chose to do what they did, how is this possible? Were there not instructed and enlightened individuals in the army? The Renaissance in Italy had started almost 200 years before these events and Ancient Rome and Greece were studied extensively. Surely they knew this building was about 2000 years old by that time. Did they not know that it was one of the most glorious temples in history and its significance for history, architecture and the arts?

It strikes me as unusual that of all people of all times, it was the Venetians that did most damage. Venice - a cosmopolitan centre of enlightenment, art, science, philosophy, classical philology..

1 Answers 2021-09-12

A Roman Germany

I know of the Battle of the Teutoberg Forest as the moment that marks the end of Roman expansion into Germany. In the subsequent years, decades and centuries, was there ever any serious effort (whether intellectually or militarily) within the empire to rekindle conquest beyond the Rhine?

1 Answers 2021-09-12

In both Sweden and Denmark standarized language forms have largely replaced local dialects. Has anyone studied any specific reasons as to why the same did not happen in Norway?

Dialects are primary mode of communication in Norway and Bokmal is seldom used. IIRC even when two Norwegians do not understand each other, they are more likely to use English than Bokmal.

3 Answers 2021-09-12

The Romans considered their Pantheon as equivalent, or at least closely representing, the Greek one. Did the Greeks agree?

Roman gods were modelled after Greek gods, with major gods having one-to-one correspondence in terms of referring to the same entity (although I'm sure there were slight cultural variations in the attributes and myths/legends of said entity, or at least the ones considered most important).

Did the Greeks agree to this interpretation, both before and after Greece was conquered by Rome? As the original "authors" of their Pantheon, and generally pretty snobbish towards any non-Greek cultures, were they proud or offended at their pantheon being renamed, and possibly mutated, by a foreign culture (which ended up dominating over their own)? Did they just see the Roman pantheon as an uncontroversial translation difference, or did they see it as a second-hand copy, derivative, cultural appropriation, or even heresy? Would a Greek visiting Rome pray at a Roman temple to Jupiter exactly as they would pray to Zeus back home?

A related (and broader) question would be asking about the Greek world had a concept of heresy, or taking offense when other cultures (or factions in their own culture) had a different interpretation of the nature or role of the gods, priests, and religious rituals, compared to the "mainstream". I know the Greeks had a much less personal and dogmatic relation with their gods than the Judeo-Christian tradition, so I wonder whether differences between pantheons such as the Greek and Roman ones would be along religious dogma lines, or rather simply along cultural/tradition lines. Were religious "schisms" a thing in the pre-Christian Greco-Roman world? Did they ever escalate to a major political issue rather than a purely religious one?

1 Answers 2021-09-12

Scholarly sources on Dionysus

Hello, I've stumbled upon a video about Dionysus on YouTube once and found it very interesting.
I'm looking for a bibliography/some sources on Dionysus (books or articles, french or english) and I'm interested in something understandable and scientific, not for some freudian reinterpretation or spiritual speculations without sources. Can anyone help me ?

1 Answers 2021-09-12

Why did the German tribes move southwards towards the Roman Empire?

Do we know? Were they under pressure from lack of resources due to population growth, had territorial clashes among themselves, or saw changes from things such as climate change? Why Goths, Vandals and others had the need to invade the northern Italian peninsula and other areas of the Roman Empire?

1 Answers 2021-09-12

How common were sheriffs in the Wild West?

How common were sheriffs in the Wild West (1870-1890ish)? Did every town have a sheriff? Was it a county thing? Was there only one sheriff and a bunch of deputies? Thank you.

1 Answers 2021-09-12

Did ancient civilisations have a way to determine the exact location of something, like the modern coordinates system? If so, when was it developed and how did it worked?

I have been researching for a novel I'm writing that involves this. I have been investigating in books, articles and academic documents, but I have found no satisfactory answer. I've found things related to constellations and astronomy, but I would like a more detailed explanation of how did the ancients determined the locations and how precise it was.

1 Answers 2021-09-12

Red Bull was created in 1987. Drinks like Dr. Enuf were marketed as early energy drinks? What’s the history of the energy drink as we know it?

1 Answers 2021-09-12

What did incense look like in the roman empire around a 170 AD?

Hey everyone! There's a line in The Meditations by Marcus Aurelius that I really enjoy and I am planning on getting a tattoo to represent it. I was talking with my tattoo artist about it and we both thought it would be great if it was historically accurate. After some googling, I'm not sure that I have a good sense of what incense looked like during Marcus Aurelius' time.

Would any of you be able to shed some light on what incense looked like around the time he was writing, apparently between 171-175 AD while on campaign?

The line is: "Many lumps of incense on the same altar. One crumbles now, one later, but it makes no difference." [Book 4, chapter 15, translation by Gregory Hays]

I don't know if it's helpful but I checked on the Ancient Greek:

The Greek reads as: " Πολλὰ λιβανωτοῦ βωλάρια ἐπὶ τοῦ αὐτοῦ βωμοῦ: τὸ μὲν προκατέπεσεν, τὸ δ᾽ ὕστερον, διαφέρει δ᾽ οὐδέν."

And here's the link to it on Perseus: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A2008.01.0641%3Abook%3D4%3Achapter%3D15%3Asection%3Dpos%3D120

Using the Liddell & Scott Lexicon, I'm translating βωλάρια as "lumps," from βῶλος. The Gregory Hays translation matches this but the Maxwell Staniforth translation translates it as "grains."

Anyway, let me know if you have any information that would be helpful!

Thanks!

1 Answers 2021-09-12

A common question on this sub asks "who was history's Big Bad before Hitler?" That's interesting and all, but I want to know the inverse: who was history's Good Guy before Dr. King, Ghandi, or Mother Theresa?

Obviously those three are way more complex than the best parts of their legacy, but what they stood for was selflessness, freedom, equality, and nonviolence. Who embodied those ideals up to say, the early 20th century? Jesus? St. Francis of Assisi?

1 Answers 2021-09-12

Is there evidence for the "Cobra Effect" story?

Over in r/history, u/jehoshua42 asked about instances where attempts to solve a problem end up making it worse.

The example that sprang to my mind was the story often told (for example on QI) of the time the British Raj issued a bounty on cobras, only to find the Indian locals starred breeding them to get more money - so the bounty was ended, which meant the snakes were released and there were more cobras than ever.

It's cited as the most famous example on the Wikipedia page on Perverse Incentive, but the citations go to a religious tract and an essay on economics, both of which are probably not interested in the actual historicity or otherwise of the event.

There was an AH question from 8 years ago, where one responder misunderstood the question and gave a different example of the phenomenon (featuring severed hands in the Belgian Congo) and another pasted a couple of paragraphs of French that apparently again gave another example of rat rails in Indochina.

So, did it happen?

2 Answers 2021-09-12

Does an English language survey history book specifically about Kazakhstan exist?

I'm looking online and the closest thing I can find for a survey text about the history of Kazakhstan is Sarah Cameron 'The Hungry Steppe: Famine, Violence, and the Making of Soviet Kazakhstan', which covers the just a relatively small period of time. Otherwise a few works about Central Asia more broadly have been published as well.

2 Answers 2021-09-12

How widespread were cases of immigrants in the early 20th century having their legal names changed by immigration officials?

I've heard plenty of stories about immigrants in this era / the late 19th century having their legal names in the US be at the mercy of whatever the immigrant officials chose to write down. How common was this actually? Would this happen even to immigrants fluent in English who could clarify their real name? Did the immigrants in question get their names corrected or were they just stuck with whatever they got?

1 Answers 2021-09-12

Were body weight concerns and dieting not a Thing in most of history?

I have just read with much interest a series of blog posts arguing that the modern obesity epidemic is driven primarily by environmental contaminants that disrupt our bodies' natural weight regulation, which I am not linking because the autobot thinks it is spam. I will attempt to make a comment with the link.

Part of the argument is the claim that humans, barring various rare conditions, simply didn't get particularly fat, no matter what kind of diet they ate, before the industrial age. And that in about 1980 there was a fairly sharp upswing in the rates of obesity worldwide - including among domestic and to some degree wild animals.

Are these claims accurate historically? Were obese people rare in history, and dieting to lose weight essentially unheard of?

1 Answers 2021-09-12

How much did the epidemic of the Black Death in China contribute to the collapse of the Yuan Dynasty?

1 Answers 2021-09-12

Was "White slavers" a common fear among the working class in Britain in the early interwar years?

In Agatha Christie's "The Adventure of the Clapham Cook" set sometime soon after the great war Hercule Poirot interviews a domestic servant who believes her friend has been kidnapped by "white slavers" who have whisked her off to the near east. This seems a ridiculous fear for the period, with most of the near east being a western mandate of some form or another. And indeed Christie, writing in 1923, presents it as a foolish idea of a dimwitted person. Is there any record of this being realistic? Something that a dim witted domestic servant of the era might have actually worried about?

1 Answers 2021-09-12

Scholarly works on privacy throughout history

I do research in privacy and as a result I became very interested in the concept's history. One slight problem is that the term "privacy" originates from an 1890 publication called The right to privacy by Warren & Brandeis. Before that there are some works relevant to the formation of the concept, but all within a few decades of that defining article. However, I can find hardly anything describing privacy before that time.

I do find a lot of sources of varying quality that describe what we nowadays associate with privacy. Some examples:

  • Anthropological texts from the 17th century onward describing encounters with and studies of tribal life. They point to privacy-seeking behaviour, like couples in the Huron tribe getting intimate in the area surrounding the single room longhouse. This behaviour had a strong effect on seasonal birth rates. Or descriptions of tribal life where nudity was commonplace.
  • Philosophy texts are possibly the best documented. Both Plato and Aristotle discuss private and public life, and so do the Romans. Pliny the Elder even complained about the same issues as contemporary celebrities: “Great fortune has this characteristic, that it allows nothing to be concealed, nothing hidden; it opens up the homes of princes, and not only that but their bedrooms and intimate retreats, and it opens up and exposes to talk all the arcane secrets.”
  • Developments in housing, such as brick chimneys leading to the division of common houses into separate rooms. Or how increased wealth leads to smaller household sizes, a relation that still seems to be hold nowadays. The sources I have for this are all over the place though.

Researching privacy before its conception is a challenging task, because seeing how those findings relate to privacy is my personal interpretation. I encountered pieces of the picture in a wide range of topics. These include art, architecture, government administration, public (and political) culture, philosophy, religion and sexuality. By approaching the subject from multiple angles, I hope to develop a well-rounded image of privacy throughout history.

So far I'm finding my way through Ancient Greece and Rome, as those happen to be the historical periods I'm most familiar with. Before or after that I'm feeling rather blind and I could really use a trained eye to point me in interesting directions. As a result, my query is rather broad:

What are interesting works that can further my investigation of the concept of privacy throughout (mostly European) history?

I hope I managed to describe what I'm looking for, but feel free to ask for clarification. Any help is appreciated.

1 Answers 2021-09-11

When “barbarians” were recruited into the Roman army, did they use the same armour and weapons as the Roman-born soldiers? Or did they use their traditional weapons?

1 Answers 2021-09-11

Why did opium cause so many problems in China but not other parts of the world?

As far as I know opium was also sold and consumed in countries like Britain

1 Answers 2021-09-11

When did it become common for American women to begin piercing their ears?

My mother (b. 1948) said something the other day that struck me as strange. She said that growing up, ear peircing wasn't very common.

She grew up in Minneapolis, and according to her, the only women who had their ears pierced were Latina.

She didn't get her ears pierced until she was in college by her friend, which was accomplished one drunken night with the help of some ice cubes and a potato.

I had assumed that ear piercing and earrings had ubiquitous popularity in the modern era, but this appears not to be the case.

When and where was piercing popular? When did it become common to pierce your ears as a young girl? Did it fall in and out of fashion? And if so, why?

Thanks!

1 Answers 2021-09-11

In the Declaration of Independence, is the phrase “endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights” purposefully ambiguous? Is it meant to imply that “their Creator” can mean their parents, and that the phrase is talking about birthright citizenship?

This phrase is obviously used by contemporary Christians as big proof that the Founders meant that our rights were God-given by Christian God and the founding fathers therefore intended that the US be a Christian country.

But how much was “their Creator” an intentionally ambiguous phrase at the time? Was that phrase chosen to imply that citizenship was an inalienable right by birth, instead of being lesser citizens whose rights were determined at the whims of a King?

Like how much do scholars think it was meant to mean “God given” versus “Dad given?” Or was it just designed to imply both?

1 Answers 2021-09-11

Why is the Roman Empire after 212 AD not regarded as a nation-state?

It is often said that nationalism is a very modern concept which first originated in France just before the French Revolution. But the Roman concept of citizenship, Romanitas ('Romanness'), and especially their idea that anyone could be a Roman if they accepted Roman civilisation sound awfully similar to modern American notions of civic nationalism. Thus, wouldn't it be correct to claim that the ancient Romans had a modern concept of nationalism, especially after Caracalla granted full citizenship to all free adult males in the empire?

1 Answers 2021-09-11

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